“Physicality” in sound: my novel theory of its basis.

You are talking to a self-admitted non-techie...but the point is that for me when I think about physicality, I only find what I am looking for in large scale speakers that do a lot of whatever big speakers do (move air, displace air, whatever): Rockport Arrakis, Genesis 1s, AG Trio G3s...and brief auditions with 4-tower Tidal Sunrays. I had an even more brief listen to Ron's 4-tower Gryphon Pendragon. But having really listened for hours to the first 3, I feel like the first 3 are the ones I feel confident for me create a physical power/scale even at low levels that is effortless and is also at a level that is comfortably beyond the more traditionally sized large speakers (XLF, Focal Grande Utopia, Cessaro Betas or Lizst)

Ok, I see you are considering large scale is needed to have "physically" and in some way associating them. I was addressing "physically" as “solidity”, “tangibility”, “palpability”, “slam”, as referred in the OP.

No doubt matched systems with very large speakers in adequate rooms have capabilities that surpass the average system. Having listened to the WAMM Master Chronosonic with the subs off and on in the same room where I listened many times to XLF without subs, I believe that used with the same subs, the XLF is in the same rank as the other speakers you refer considering scale - surely just referring to scale! MHO, YMMV
 
Ok, I see you are considering large scale is needed to have "physically" and in some way associating them. I was addressing "physically" as “solidity”, “tangibility”, “palpability”, “slam”, as referred in the OP.

No doubt matched systems with very large speakers in adequate rooms have capabilities that surpass the average system.
Actually, I AM saying these larger speakers (that do scale) also do physicality as in corporeal body/power/solidity/depth of note. As in...I am next door, and wonder who is the trio playing jazz in the next room.
 
...Having listened to the WAMM Master Chronosonic with the subs off and on in the same room where I listened many times to XLF without subs, I believe that used with the same subs, the XLF is in the same rank as the other speakers you refer considering scale - surely just referring to scale! MHO, YMMV
That is very good to know...I look forward next year to trialing something.
 
(...) That is why, for our system, I am more focused on big subs to add effortless air movement to the deep bass and potentially enable the main speaker to have more capacity/headroom for the midbass (because we would be allowing the main amps and the main speakers to stop somewhere below 45hz rather than go down sub 20hz).

Just to refer that If XLFs are stopping bellow 40-45 Hz it is not their problem - it is due to room bass cancellation. And IME no subwoofer placed very close to them will solve the problem.

If there is no room cancellation they easily go down to 18 Hz
 
Just to refer that If XLFs are stopping bellow 40-45 Hz it is not their problem - it is due to room bass cancellation. And IME no subwoofer placed very close to them will solve the problem.

If there is no room cancellation they easily go down to 18 Hz
Thank you. Pedro of Absolute Sounds set up our room and measured our in-room response as flat to 25hz and then dip of 5db at 20hz.

The reason I want to try cutting off the XLFs at 45hz is, based on my dealer's recommendation, we take all that drive away from the amps and the speakers...so the XLFs have more effortless headroom for the upperbass and lower mids. And use something like the WB IGx's for the sub 45hz performance.

The goal is to give them the ability to deliver the effortless foundation and scalability of a much larger speaker.
 
Thank you. Pedro of Absolute Sounds set up our room and measured our in-room response as flat to 25hz and then dip of 5db at 20hz.

The reason I want to try cutting off the XLFs at 45hz is, based on my dealer's recommendation, we take all that drive away from the amps and the speakers...so the XLFs have more effortless headroom for the upperbass and lower mids. And use something like the WB IGx's for the sub 45hz performance.

The goal is to give them the ability to deliver the effortless foundation and scalability of a much larger speaker.

Well, I am envious - never measured a room that has such flatness, particularly with large speakers - surely I use 1/6 octave smoothing.

You will need an active crossover to carry such job - or are you considering just a capacitor to filter the low frequencies?
 
Well, I am envious - never measured a room that has such flatness, particularly with large speakers - surely I use 1/6 octave smoothing.

You will need an active crossover to carry such job - or are you considering just a capacitor to filter the low frequencies?
We are thinking Pedro would come back with Wilson Crossover and then a pair of subs...we have to decide which pair. Perlisten D215s, Funk 18.2 or W-B IGx.
 
We are thinking Pedro would come back with Wilson Crossover and then a pair of subs...we have to decide which pair. Perlisten D215s, Funk 18.2 or W-B IGx.

I have the Wilson WatchDog crossovers - I use them with the Watchdog subs just in the low pass section to tune them. In my system the high pass downgraded sound quality.
 
I have the Wilson WatchDog crossovers - I use them with the Watchdog subs just in the low pass section to tune them. In my system the high pass downgraded sound quality.
Good to know...thank you for sharing your very extensive experience. Would you think the main Wilson Crossover is any better? I think you've also used the JL Audio Crossover? Better?
 
Good to know...thank you for sharing your very extensive experience. Would you think the main Wilson Crossover is any better? I think you've also used the JL Audio Crossover? Better?

The JLAudio CR1 crossover has no continuous phase control, it can't be used with subs that do not have such feature. It had however a damping control that was great to match the subs to main speakers. Great for their subs.
I never tried the high- pass section, I think our member BruceB uses such feature it in his studio.
 
The JLAudio CR1 crossover has no continuous phase control, it can't be used with subs that do not have such feature. It had however a damping control that was great to match the subs to main speakers. Great for their subs.
I never tried the high- pass section, I think our member BruceB uses such feature it in his studio.
Thank you. I am pretty sure W-B, Funk and Perlisten all have phase controls. What would your instinct say if we were thinking high-pass...Wilson or JL?
 
As I said, I’m sure there are a number of factors that go into our sense of “physicality” so I’m not attributing it wholly to air-pressure. My concern was: (1) to argue that this sense is not an illusion but has a basis in a real, potentially measurable, acoustic phenomenon; and (2) that different techniques in speaker design more or less correspond to the degree of this sense of physicality. Of course, it’s only ONE of a number of desiderata, but I think an important one for our illusion of “real instruments and voices”. Whether pursuing it undermines other desiderata, and to what extent compromises are to be made, is a matter for speaker-designers.
Incidentally, on the subject of direct versus reflected sound as a factor in “physicality”, I use a Trinnov ST2 Pro Optimizer to control these and other electronically modifiable methods of transforming the sound in the room. For instance, I can change the direct/reflected ratio to approach anechoic-chamber level. And I do find that the sense of “physicality” is increased the closer I get to direct rather than reflected sound from the speaker/room interaction. I find the Trinnov indispensable for this and other reasons.
 
when I am in a totally different room, I often find that the physicality is there on those bigger systems. But would your reflections analysis still hold in those cases? I would have guessed once you're in a different room and find that the system has that sense of physical power/presence that simulates real instruments...it is more about pure air movement than the reflections?

I'm not sure what you mean... are you talking about comparing a small system in a small room with a bigger system in a "totally different" - bigger? - room?

Imo the room (including speaker set-up and listener location) gets a vote, and the speakers themselves get a vote.

At the risk of over-generalizing: A bigger system will usually be doing more things right than a smaller system, both in the direct sound and in the reflection field; it will usually have deeper bass which contributes to the sense of being an a three-dimensional space and witnessing a three-dimensional event; and it will usually have a higher direct-to-reflected sound ratio. If it is also in a bigger room, the reflection path lengths (and therefore the time gap before the strong onset of reflections) will be longer.

There is a "poor man's hack" for getting some of these benefits with a relatively modest system in a smaller room: Position the speakers further out into the room, closer together than normal, and then sit closer to them than normal so that your stereo triangle is preserved. This increases the direct-to-reflected sound ratio and increases the reflection path lengths relative to a more traditional set-up configuration.

If fact even without moving the speakers one can just try scooting the listening chair closer than normal, maybe adjusting speaker toe-in if needed. In my experience there will often be a distance at which the perception of "physicality" or "proximity" or whatever is suddenly there, but then it is not there if you are just a few inches further away. I think there is a perceptual threshold that is crossed.

Of course this sort of "quasi-nearfield" setup results in the speakers dominating the room moreso that may be feasible, and it's pretty much optimized for one-person-only listening.

As I said, I’m sure there are a number of factors that go into our sense of “physicality” so I’m not attributing it wholly to air-pressure. My concern was: (1) to argue that this sense is not an illusion but has a basis in a real, potentially measurable, acoustic phenomenon

Agreed, it's not an illusion... well I guess in a sense it is, in the same sene that stereo itself is a spatial illusion, but ime "physicality" is a real spatial illusion instead of a "wishful-thinking" spatial illusion.

; and (2) that different techniques in speaker design more or less correspond to the degree of this sense of physicality.

Agreed.

Now as @Ron Resnick pointed out, "physicality" is something the omnidirectional MBLs can do, but the specific room set-up conditions (including room size) play a significant role. One area where the MBLs excel is this: Their off-axis sound starts out with exactly the same spectral balance as their direct sound, so the spectral balance of their reflections is effectively perfect, assuming the room doesn't absorb too much of the high frequency energy in the reflections.

Imo this "getting the reflections right" aspect is a significant contributor to the ability of the MBLs to create the perception of "physicality" under good set-up conditions.

Incidentally, on the subject of direct versus reflected sound as a factor in “physicality”, I use a Trinnov ST2 Pro Optimizer to control these and other electronically modifiable methods of transforming the sound in the room. For instance, I can change the direct/reflected ratio to approach anechoic-chamber level. And I do find that the sense of “physicality” is increased the closer I get to direct rather than reflected sound from the speaker/room interaction.

Very interesting!

Can you describe how the Trinnov changes the direct/reflected ratio? Does it generate cancellation signals which cancel out the reflections at the microphone location?

If so, which reflections does it cancel? "Approach[ing] anechoic-chamber level" is pretty impressive!
 
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(...) Agreed, it's not an illusion... well I guess in a sense it is, in the same sene that stereo itself is a spatial illusion, but ime "physicality" is a real spatial illusion instead of a "wishful-thinking" spatial illusion. (...)

An interesting comment. IMO, in the stereo illusion, what can separate "wishful-thinking" spatial illusion from "real spatial" is the independence of listener subjectivity, particular hearing or education. Considering that spatial information in stereo is given by cues and is extremely volatile, we can think that "physicallity" is mostly a tonal artifact, due to distortions and changes in spectra.

BTW, I do not think it depends on massive "air displacement" - some of my best experiences of great "physically" were with Quad ESL63 or Martin Logan panels. BTW, I am not a rock/pop music listener, perhaps these types of music have different requirements in such aspect.
 
I'm not sure what you mean... are you talking about comparing a small system in a small room with a bigger system in a "totally different" - bigger? - room?

Imo the room (including speaker set-up and listener location) gets a vote, and the speakers themselves get a vote.

At the risk of over-generalizing: A bigger system will usually be doing more things right than a smaller system, both in the direct sound and in the reflection field; it will usually have deeper bass which contributes to the sense of being an a three-dimensional space and witnessing a three-dimensional event; and it will usually have a higher direct-to-reflected sound ratio. If it is also in a bigger room, the reflection path lengths (and therefore the time gap before the strong onset of reflections) will be longer.
Thanks, Duke. When I think about physicality, I mean you literally walk out of the room...go upstairs and listen. And if you think the power of the system makes it feel like there is a jazz trio or solo sonata player through the wall or downstairs, then the system has physicality. Often, beautiful renditions of music with nuances and subtleties even soundstage, do NOT have that level of physicality and power to convince the instruments are in the next room. That is what I am focusing on as a next target.

In this case, does reflection matter? I presume not...and imagine it is genuinely more about the system's ability to drive the power of the music to an air pressure/displacement level that through the wall or floor/ceiling enables a listener to wonder...system or instrument? Obviously, that system is not going to deliver a 70-piece orchestra or a chorus...but in the case of much smaller soloists or ensembles, that is what I seek a system to do well. And why I focus on midbass power to enable the mids to carry and the foundation of the music in the upper through lower bass (which requires a lot of displacement to improve physicality).

As an industry expert and designer of speakers particularly, does that make sense to you? For me, when I heard CLXs, I found the transparency beautiful...but when I went back to Wilsons which did not have the alacrity or transparency or coherence, I found they massively DID have a lot more power/body/density which mattered much more to me.
 
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Thank you. I am pretty sure W-B, Funk and Perlisten all have phase controls. What would your instinct say if we were thinking high-pass...Wilson or JL?
Hello Lloyd, The Wilson ActivXo is a quieter crossover than the JL. (I have owned both). I have heard from a person I trust that the ActivXo is better than the older Watchdog crossover, but I have not heard the Watchdog version.

Like Microstrip, I would suggest exercising caution with the high pass side of a crossover. These things are very far from transparent. I know these guys all say, "Take the load off the amp..." I say, get a bigger amp if that is the problem. But I seriously doubt this is a problem with the XLF and whatever amp you have.

Also of note, if you are looking for bass slam, then the WB-IGX is not the right choice. It also drives me crazy that the spikes are not adjustable on it. For Wilson speakers, the Funk would likely make a nice pairing. Of course, I am referring to the dual 18" extreme. Or you could go all out and get the ultimiate in bass -- Purelow GR.
 
Hello Lloyd, The Wilson ActivXo is a quieter crossover than the JL. (I have owned both). I have heard from a person I trust that the ActivXo is better than the older Watchdog crossover, but I have not heard the Watchdog version.

Like Microstrip, I would suggest exercising caution with the high pass side of a crossover. These things are very far from transparent. I know these guys all say, "Take the load off the amp..." I say, get a bigger amp if that is the problem. But I seriously doubt this is a problem with the XLF and whatever amp you have.

Also of note, if you are looking for bass slam, then the WB-IGX is not the right choice. It also drives me crazy that the spikes are not adjustable on it. For Wilson speakers, the Funk would likely make a nice pairing. Of course, I am referring to the dual 18" extreme. Or you could go all out and get the ultimiate in bass -- Purelow GR.
Thank you. That is incredibly helpful! On subs...yes, if Funk, definitely would be the 18.2 which is a dual-opposing set of 2 18" Carbon fiber cones (eliminating a good amount of distortion apparently based on the open plane 2.0m distance measurements they sent). The PureLows are literally 2x if not more than the Funks...yeesh. I feel sure PureLow can go up to 45hz without distortion and be effortless...does it really create scale/sense of space and when necessary slam like a cone down below?
 

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