Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings

[Ron Resnick]

No speakers (if they were, they would be on my short list!).

The output of the phonostage is plugged into to an RME Fireface, which is an ADC and converts to a file.
The quality is remarkable.

Sorry, but I'm confused.

This is a thread about videos acoustically-recorded from speakers. What's the point of posting a video which simply illustrates an ADC dubbing process?

 

[hopkins]

Sorry, but I'm confused.

This is a thread about videos acoustically-recorded from speakers. What's the point of posting a video which simply illustrates an ADC dubbing process?

The point was to illustrate well recorded tracks, sounding "natural", to then be used in system recordings (with digital or analog sources).

 

[Ron Resnick]

The point was to illustrate well recorded tracks, sounding "natural", to then be used in system recordings (with digital or analog sources).

Thank you.

 

[Ron Resnick]

If Ron tells us that using some specific headphones the sound is close to the balance he gets from his system we can understand a bit more of his preference and this can make his system thread more interesting.

I can confirm -- with a data point of one video -- that listening on even modest headphones makes a huge, positive difference towards achieving greater tonal balance representativeness.

 

[PeterA]

The point was to illustrate well recorded tracks, sounding "natural", to then be used in system recordings (with digital or analog sources).

The process you describe records only the power delivery, the LP, cartridge, arm, table, phono, cable and ADC. It cuts out contributions from the amps, subsequent wires, speakers, and room. If the vinyl front end it good, we should get a good sense of the sound of the recording. It is interesting, but it is not the same as comparing whole system videos. This might be interesting to compare to the digital "official" YouTube release of some recording because of the lack of variables, but it is not apples to apples with most of the system videos on this thread. It does sound good though.

 

[wil]

Here is a recording which is relatively inoffensive, and I think most people would agree is of very good quality:

https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/09%20-%20All%20Or%20Nothing%20At%20All.flac

Patricia Barber - Nightclub.

This album is available both in digital and analog format and I suspect the sound quality should be similar. Though there are different remasterings available, I don't think it should make that much of a difference for a system recording.

"Nightclub was recorded at Chicago Recording Company in mid-2000 by recording engineer Jim Anderson. Done on the Sony 3348, a 32-track (16/48) digital tape recorder, and mixed down to 2-track, half-inch analog tape with Dolby SR, this was Barber’s first album consisting entirely of standards. Anderson utilized mostly tube microphones (Brauner and Neumann) and John Hardy M-1 preamps, whose signal was patched directly to the tape bypassing the console."

The music may not be to everyone's taste - personally, it leaves me indifferent, but that is not the point.

I guess since the practice of analytical listening (in terms of sound quality) can seem like work I shouldn’t care if the “work music” consists of audiophile chestnuts. But there is such a wealth of truly interesting music available, why must audiophiles be so stuck on this bland music? Music that’s more challenging, and still well recorded, would be more fun (though admittedly more polarizing). When my system is stabilized, I’ll post something and stop complaining!

 

[wil]

At that time we compared recordings of the Tandberg 20A with those of the Sony MiniDisc Ja50ES 20Bit Super Bit Mapping. There were hardly any differences, with the Tandberg it was a bit more dynamic. Too bad Sony probably let the system die due to not having enough users.View attachment 111470

I think I understand what you are saying here: that you believe most people would agree on what constitutes a good recording, that some aspects of sound do survive a digital conversion process (as require to record a system playing music with a smart phone then posting it on YouTube) and that if we can agree as to which recordings would be best suited (you suggest a well recorded track of acoustical instruments, voices, single microphone and preferably jazz), we could then use it as a common starting point to evaluate systems/equipment?

I would agree generally, but I think there is a problem or two that this plan can not resolve. First to come to mind is equipment bias. I think we would agree that there are "audiophiles" that are predominately into the music, appreciating whatever equipment gets them to the best presentation thereof? Then, what music? Classical, Jazz, synthesised? Choosing one particular recording to evaluate all systems is never going to satisfy all the music-priority audiophiles, but I would speculate the majority would have at least one turntable and some pre-1980 vinyl in their collection.

If you agree that there are music-priority audiophiles on this site, then you must also recognise that there are equipment-priority "audiophiles" as well. These would be those who are predominately into their equipment, appreciating design, measured performance and prestige in owning the rare and expensive, music reproduction is only a factor when it shows off the performance of the equipment (typically a sound track of sound effects, not known music). I again speculate that this group would be heavily weighted towards the digital reproduction side.

At audio shows you can tell which type of "audiophile" an equipment manufacturer is appealing to by the music selection they are playing. If "Afternoon in Paris" with John Lewis and Sacha Distel is spinning on the turntable then they are probably appealing to those, like myself and perhaps you, that prefer a natural sound. If a high-definition music storage device is playing something that sounds like sound effects (heavy chain drug along a raised wooden stage, drops of water into a pond within a cave, drumming on wooden blocks, car hub caps, plastic pipes etc.) through massive transistor amplifiers and huge speakers, probably slated more towards the equipment-priority audiophile.

Basically, we are all different with different likes and dislikes. What would work for you and me would not for others here, and that is fine as long as we all recognise and appreciate that we are different. What I can not abide with, something which is causing me to ponder on whether or not I should even continue with this site, is the attacks and arguments between members who want to argue whether their particular slant on this whole thing is the correct slant and anyone who differs must be wrong.

With all due respect, haven’t you been doing exactly that repeatedly in practically every one of your posts? That is, to paraphrase, “Vinyl=Good, Digital=Bad”

 

[DasguteOhr]

Ray brown trio-this is blues 24bit/96khz hirez recorded with dayton calbrated imm6 microphone.

https://www.amazon.de/Dayton-Audio-iMM-6-Measurement-Smartphones/dp/B00ADR2B84/ref=asc_df_B00ADR2B84/?tag=googshopde-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310655979807&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4682175702324548533&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9068137&hvtargid=pla-404766774159&psc=1&th=1&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=62549489980&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=310655979807&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4682175702324548533&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9068137&hvtargid=pla-404766774159

quickly made something, use headphones to listen

 

[Al M.]

With all due respect, haven’t you been doing exactly that repeatedly in practically every one of your posts? That is, to paraphrase, “Vinyl=Good, Digital=Bad”

Exactly my thoughts regarding his last paragraph in your quote.

 

[Rensselaer]

With all due respect, haven’t you been doing exactly that repeatedly in practically every one of your posts? That is, to paraphrase, “Vinyl=Good, Digital=Bad”

There is no good or bad, just different tastes. I only play vinyl on my big rig. Digital-to-vinyl LPs on my system sound unnatural. Poorly recorded pure analogue records, not much better, but well recorded pure analogue LPs played on my system sound so much better that one would think it was a completely different system. I do own a Naim streaming device (that plays CDs) that I use in my kitchen for background music, it is not for critical listening.

Because record producers are not required to print AAA or DDA on the label, or any indication of how and from what source the record was made, they could record a live event onto a Nagra or Sony digital tape recorder, use that to master a digital file that has had digital sound effects added to make it sound more “analogue” then cut records from that digital file and write “from the original master tape” on the cover to fool customers looking for pure analogue recordings. And I must admit I have been duped several times. I only find out after I remove the plastic wrap, clean the record and then put it on for a listen (before you ask, I knew about the MoFi one steps before it became generally known and widely written about).

To the best of my recollection, I have always qualified my comments regarding digital as being my experience with digital-to-vinyl played on my system. My experience listening to digital systems at hi fi shows in the past has always supported my at home experience, but I freely admit that technology advances and that I have no experience with the most current state of the art digital playback systems.

 

[DasguteOhr]

What speakers is he using to record the video?

as hopkins said only recording direct for internet, i know he had dynaudio c1 with pass amplifier

Vinyl-Revival – Orangeaudio

 

[Rensselaer]

Exactly my thoughts regarding his last paragraph in your quote.

Looking at your digital playback system I understand why you might feel threatened enough by what I wrote to write this.

 

[Kingrex]

curious our learning is from opposite directions. While you were learning by reading and listening to experts, I was learning by listening and comparing live music to the sound of my audio system. I decided to stop reading because it was leading me in the wrong direction.

This is a confusing topic all of its own. I was doing an install myself the last 2 days. My client is frustrated on how to know what to get and how to assemble the components. Our local dealer has lead him to a a lot of expensive gear. He was moved into more and more expensive speakers that now don't really fit the room now. He knows the limitations of a single dealer and how they are money driven.
He said he does not like Forums because of the animosity between members.
Magazines are not useful.
I told him to revisit some forums, AudiophileStyle in particular to learn more about how to set up his streaming and what to purchase.
I told him to look at this forum and participate. Once he has a name and people understand who he is, members are often willing to have people over to listen. He said he is not the type person to participate and ask to visit, although he would enjoy having people to his place.

He also openly admitted he feels the hobby is an addiction. He is actually looking a mortgaging his house to buy more gear. Then he says he is interested in a new woman, that if if becomes serious, he will walk away from audio all together and travel the world with her. People are so interesting.

 

[hopkins]

The process you describe records only the power delivery, the LP, cartridge, arm, table, phono, cable and ADC. It cuts out contributions from the amps, subsequent wires, speakers, and room. If the vinyl front end it good, we should get a good sense of the sound of the recording. It is interesting, but it is not the same as comparing whole system videos. This might be interesting to compare to the digital "official" YouTube release of some recording because of the lack of variables, but it is not apples to apples with most of the system videos on this thread. It does sound good though.

Yes, it sounds very good, even with some YouTube compression. There are several tracks being played:

- Bach cello suite, which I could not identify

- Cecil McLorin Salvant, available on Quobuz (start around 2:15)

Open Qobuz

open.qobuz.com

The CD and LP were certainly issued at the same time. The digital version sounds very good IMO.

- John Lee Hooker, also available on Qobuz, from Fantasy Records, which corresponds to this 1990 CD version: https://www.discogs.com/fr/release/1826232-Lightnin-Hopkins-Goin-Away.

Open Qobuz

open.qobuz.com

The CD version was probably made from the master tapes (owned by Fantasy), but who knows how, and the sound is a little dull, IMO, compared to the LP playback heard in that video. Still good though.

 

[morricab]

I had both cartridges at home, the frog is the most balanced vdh that ever existed. nothing seems exaggerated, it doesn't get too crowded with details and resolution. xx2 mk2 has a fuller fundamental tone and bass, it gives the voices more body. as a result, the sound shifts minimally from neutral to dark. but that's not a problem, so many devices today tend to be brighter. a perfect symbiosis

I have a Frog (silver coils) and a DD2mkII (also silver coils) both sound great. That said, my Audio Technica AT-150 MLX is actually more dynamic.

 

[spiritofmusic]

This is a confusing topic all of its own. I was doing an install myself the last 2 days. My client is frustrated on how to know what to get and how to assemble the components. Our local dealer has lead him to a a lot of expensive gear. He was moved into more and more expensive speakers that now don't really fit the room now. He knows the limitations of a single dealer and how they are money driven.
He said he does not like Forums because of the animosity between members.
Magazines are not useful.
I told him to revisit some forums, AudiophileStyle in particular to learn more about how to set up his streaming and what to purchase.
I told him to look at this forum and participate. Once he has a name and people understand who he is, members are often willing to have people over to listen. He said he is not the type person to participate and ask to visit, although he would enjoy having people to his place.

He also openly admitted he feels the hobby is an addiction. He is actually looking a mortgaging his house to buy more gear. Then he says he is interested in a new woman, that if if becomes serious, he will walk away from audio all together and travel the world with her. People are so interesting.

Tbh he ought to bypass the expensive and ultimately fruitless relationship with this dealer, and go straight to the travel with soulmate phase. So much more satisfying.
And likely cheaper, lol.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Back to microphones - but please carry on these interesting discussions.
I asked for advice on another forum (French) which has some contributors with a lot of experience of microphones/recordings, because I was not terribly happy with my recordings - frequency response, and noise floor.

One person has the same recorder (Tascam) and same microphones (Superlux S502) as me, and has made measurements. He found that the "advertised" frequency response is far from what you actually obtain, and applied the following equalisation curve to his recordings in order to get a similar sound to what he heard in-room:

View attachment 111472

Those are pretty significant filters. It is not night and day, there are more significant differences between different speakers, but it can make a recording sound a little less bright and with more low end.

In comparison, I uploaded into Audacity an equalization curve corresponding exactly to the calibration file of my Umik measurement microphone, and it looks like this:

View attachment 111473

So as you move from an in-build microphone to a budget external microphone you probably improve the resolution obtained, there is no guarantee that the frequency response is really that much improved.

The filters that Ron applied enabled him also to get a sound closer to what he heard in his room.

In mid-frequencies, the response is flat, so that is fine to detect colorations of speakers in that range, but in the bass and highs the picture you get from a recording is not very accurate!

Dayton imm6 have a calibriation file must be implanted with file manager phone. download a different download file for each microphone(number) on their website. what an effort for a cheap microphone. it's really good compared to bruel&kjaer

 

[Al M.]

Looking at your digital playback system I understand why you might feel threatened enough by what I wrote to write this.

You exhibit exactly the passive aggressive attitude that you bemoan in others, with some absolutism sprinkled on top of it. I don't feel threatened by analog at all. I love hearing great vinyl in my friends' systems. I thoroughly enjoy it, currently in California where I am hearing a friend's SET/horn system. We're having a blast.

Yet I enjoy my digital equally, and find it sound natural. But as you concede yourself you have no experience with the most current digital playback.

 

[hopkins]

Dayton imm6 have a calibriation file must be implanted with file manager phone. download a different download file for each microphone(number) on their website. what an effort for a cheap microphone. it's really good compared to bruel&kjaerView attachment 111482

From what I understand, calibration mics are designed to capture loud signals, and are much less sensitive, so you may miss out on details. Then again, if you compare it to a phone's build-in mic it may sound just fine.

I'll test mine (Umik), just because I want to see if the overall sound signature is similar to what I hear. I have it working connected to my Android phone with a USB OTG cable and it works fine with an app like Field Recorder.

 

[DasguteOhr]

From what I understand, calibration mics are designed to capture loud signals, and are much less sensitive, so you may miss out on details. Then again, if you compare it to a phone's build-in mic it may sound just fine.

I'll test mine (Umik), just because I want to see if the overall sound signature is similar to what I hear. I have it working connected to my Android phone with a USB OTG cable and it works fine with an app like Field Recorder.

I haven't measured it, but I have to set about 10dB less volume than a Samsung mic, so it's more sensitive. I used it to measure Xover for speakers. with the Microphone+ Audiotool app. It was checked very carefully with a 94 dB (400 Hz, 1 kHz and 10 kHz) test tone generator. it passed with flying colours.
I didn't notice anything unusual in terms of sound

P.s 10 steps less khozmo controller 10db

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