Newbie consideration, Technics or Kuzma?

Bonesy Jonesy

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That was wonderful, Bonesy Jonesy! Thank you for taking the time to relate all of that to jsec!

Forgive me, jsec, as this does not relate to your question, but I'm just curious to ask Bonsey Jonesy:

Do you have a personal opinion on the sound of the Grand Prix Monaco, in terms of the sound of a Kuzma turntable?

Did that dealer give you any of his comparative sonic impressions of a Kuzma turntable versus the Monaco?

Thank you.
Hi Ron, No not yet as I haven't heard the Grand Prix Monaco nor the Parabolica. It is on my wish / hit list. No I didn't talk to the Owner & Dealer of the system I was listening to about the Grand Prix Monaco. We only talked about the Kuzma TT's and tonearms. He loved the 4Point 14" that was mounted on the Stabi Reference saying it was one rock steady amazing arm and superior to the 11". He has also recently been appointed as one of the UK's CH Precision Dealer. So a Kuzma XL Air with the Safir 9 a top cartridge and a full CH Precision System linked to the TOTL Living Voice Speakers would be one hell of a system to listen to.

However, I can add that another Dealer (who is a Rega Reference Dealer and who I bought the P10 & Aura from) who also used to be one of the UK Dealers for Kuzma and Grand Prix Audio who has many years experience and and knowledge in the hifi world, said early last year to me that if he had to choose just one turntable money no object he would choose the Grand Prix Audio Monaco V2.0 with a Kuzma 4Point 14" arm. When I asked him why he said due to it's performance like listening to reel to reel tapes, it's build quality, the engineering technology and it's amazing speed stability, and that because it is not a high mass turntable and it's small footprint size is a very practical turntable. He is also a UK Technics Dealer. When I asked him about the SL-1000R and SP-10R he said the Monaco was far superior in performance on all accounts including V1.5.

So if I had the funds to have a second TT, it would for sure be a Grand Prix Audio Monaco which would really complement my XL DC.

It would be fantastic to hear a Monaco V3.0 vs a Kuzma XL Air both with the new Kuzma Safir 9 tonearm and a top cartridge with the new CH Precision P10 using it's current input. I think this set up would be end game for most on the analogue source front .
Maybe some lucky people will at this years Munich hifi show along with the CH L10 and two M10's linked to TOTL Living Voice Speakers o_O. This for sure would satisfy even the people who can afford the best systems in the world.
 
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Bonesy Jonesy

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I had the Ref2, 4 Point, CAR50 before and thought it was a sterile and unnatural sound. I liked the table/arm though with other cartridges.
It didn't sound like that to me at all. Maybe because it was being used with such a great SUT and tube system set-up that has been perfectly built and matched component by component to make it sound as it did. It was truly magic.
 
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Bonesy Jonesy

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If this was the system at North West Audio Show, it was the Kuzma R, with 4Point and KAR 50, sat on a Platis, into Consolidated Audio SUT.

At Munich it was the Kuzma R, with Safir and KAR 60 into Consolidated Audio copper SUT on a Platis, alongside a Monaco with 4Point and KAR 50 into a Consolidated Audio silver SUT, as far as I recall. They were both used throughout the four days.
Hi Simon, Yes it was alongside your wonderful tube phono stage, preamp and power amps. It was a true and great pleasure to listen to your amazing electronics an experience I will never forget. And it was a great pleasure to meet you and Kevin too. It was the first time I had listened to a system and it made me feel very emotional when listening to some of the records that were being played.

p..s Sorry 'jsec' and all WBF members for going completely off topic for this thread !
 

jsec

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Hi 'jsec',
I was in a similar situation as you in Q1 & Q2 of last year when I had a Rega P10 with Apheta 3 cartridge and a Rega Aura Phono Stage with the P10 mounted on a Rega TT wall bracket. It sounded great (although I didn't use it very often - see my write up below) but I have always wanted to know if a higher end TT would make my TOTL headphone system sound better and always wanted to own a TOTL TT for may many years.

I looked at the Technics SL-1000R and SP-10R as well as the Kuzma Stabi S, Stabi R and XL DC TT's and 4Point Tonearms (with the XL DC in RAL 9006 metallic silver custom paint job to match my other hifi components being my dream TT set-up with a Kuzma 4Point arm for the past 6 years purely on looks alone, although the cost of it made it only a dream) or a GrandPrix Audio Monaco with a 4Point arm (as I liked the compactness and small foot print and the reviews I read about the Monaco especially the V2.0 sounded great, but again my thoughts and dreams halted due to it's very high cost).

I have never heard the Technics TT's but after reading many reviews and realising that the Technics tonearm that comes with the SL-1000R cannot be easily removed and replaced with a better arm unless you have the Technics tonearm tonearm shelves to fit another arm which I didn't like the look of. I then looked at and read reviews on the Technics SP-10R which when mounted in a high mass plinth (of your choice) you could also fit a number of different tonearms and it sounded better than the SL-1000R. So if I was going to buy a Technics TT it would be a SP-10R in a high mass plinth. However, I am currently restricted to space for such a TT, and as the Kuzma Stabi Reference and XL DC were more compact in usable surface area required (I didn't look in detail at the Stabi M as I didn't like the look of it although from the reviews it sounded like a great TT).

I was lucky to hear a great synergistically matched hifi system at a hifi show in the UK in July last year. The system consisted of a Kuzma Stabi Reference with a Kuzma 4Point 14" arm and a Kuzma CAR50 connected to a great SUT and a lovely tube phono, pre-amp & two 300B power amps connected to Living Voice OBX RW4 speakers. The sound was so organic, natural, real and musical and to my ears was one of the best sounding at the show. For me the Kuzma Stabi R TT set-up seemed like such a solid, planted and great performer, although I couldn't tell how good it was in isolation. From talking to the Owner of the demo system, he said that the that the XL DC is even better than the Stabi R (with it also being the TOTL Kuzma TT - now the Kuzma XL AIR) although the Stabi R is a fantastic TT and possibly the best cost vs performance TT in the KUzma range as being able to take multiple arms like the XL DC but not the Stabi M). I also preferred the looks of the XL DC to the Stabi R and Stabi M. The Owner of the demo system is also the UK dealer for GrandPrix Audio and also said the Monaco V2.0 was a fantastic performer, although different to the XL DC both with it being a lighter TT and direct drive even with the same Kuzma 4point 11" or 14" arm.

Then in July last year with looking through the internet, I came across a one owner used Kuzma XL DC with two tonearm towers both with VTA and a Kuzma 4Point 11" from a Kuzma Dealer in Norway at a great price. So I sought the finances and bought it. I bought it with an MSL Eminent EX (professionally installed by the Norwegian hifi dealer).

The difference in performance between the XL DC and the Rega P10 even through the Rega Aura Phono Stage and my headphone system was amazing i.e. much deeper bass, deeper and wider sound stage, more musical, more natural and analogue sounding. The sound was addictive. The P10 was for some 15 to 20% of my LP's better sounding than CD's through my Chord Blu (with M Scaler) CD Transporter & Chord DAVE digital source set-up and therefore most of the time I was using my digital source with my headphone system.
With my XL DC set-up (especially since I also bought a used one owner CH Precision P1 Phono Stage in November last year, again from reading great reviews, liking the look of the CH range, the build quality, expandability over time etc.), I now hear 90 to 95% of my music with my LP's through my TT set-up and have been buying lost of vinyl (new and used).
I am now totally addicted to analogue playback and using my TT is a great pleasure.

I plan over the next couple of years, to install a second tonearm and cartridge to my XL DC that will complement the 4Point 11" and MSL Eminent EX and purchase a CH X1 Power Unit for the P1.

The major differences I found between the Rega P10 and Kuzma XL DC was that the P10 is mainly a 'plug and play' and a 'leave it alone' TT set-up that plays great music but with more of a digital sound to it and bit of a 'toy' feel to it, whereas the XL DC feels more like a proper TT set-up that you can tinker with the set-up parameters for the tonearm to your hears content, have multiple arms, multiple cartridges mounted on multiple demountable tonearm head shells. It also looks amazing (to my eyes - even in brass), is built like a tank, will certainly last my lifetime giving me many years of pleasure.

Hope from my experiences 'jsec' that this will help you make a good decision for your TT set-up search. I wasn't able to hear any of the components I bought from a demo (even the Rega P10 & Aura). I bought them with my heart from how I liked the look of the components and with my brain from the many online reviews I read and talking to a Kuzma Dealer for the XL DC and Stabi R ). I haven't regretted buying any of my hifi components to date.
Thanks Bonesy Jonesy, a great path to follow for sure. I think my biggest question is, how much to invest to the TT itself, how much value arm and cartridge? Reading your story, aiming higher that Stabi R would be definitely something to consider. Of course phonostage is one more aspect to figure out, @Bonesy Jonesy what phonostage did you have when you got the Kuzma XL? Did you get the CH immediate?
 
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Bonesy Jonesy

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Thanks Bonesy Jonesy, a great path to follow for sure. I think my biggest question is, how much to invest to the TT itself, how much value arm and cartridge? Reading your story, aiming higher that Stabi R would be definitely something to consider. Of course phonostage is one more aspect to figure out, @Bonesy Jonesy what phonostage did you have when you got the Kuzma XL? Did you get the CH immediate?
HI 'jsec', I went for the XL DC as soon as I saw one come up that was a 2019 model with one careful owner, from a Kuzma Dealer at a great price. I always wanted a XL DC for some years now. I just love the look of it, it's solid very high quality engineering, it's flexibility with being able to use multiple arms, it's simpleness and that all of it's components are separate. Plus in the future, I can upgrade if I wanted to with the AIR kit.

I think for hifi equipment you have to like the look of the products especially TT's as it is a very tactile product.

Yes, the phono stage is very important too. In fact I would say it is up there with the TT, tonearm and cartridge as an equally important component in the hifi chain. As mentioned in my post on this thread, I initially had the Rega Aura when I first bought the XL DC in July last year. I didn't buy the used one owner CH P1 until November last year, as like the XL DC, one came up on the second hand market at a great price. The P1 was another huge step-up from the Rega Aura. I bought it from liking the look of the CH Precision range (like the XL DC), it's great online reviews from professional Reviewers and Owners (like the XL DC) and it's fantastic flexibility (also like the XL DC), and that you can further upgrade it as time goes by to mono with separate power supplies etc.
I also know that like the XL DC I won't need to sell it in the future and will most probably stay with me for very long time if not for good.
 
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Bonesy Jonesy

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HI 'jsec', I went for the XL DC as soon as I saw one come up that was a 2019 model with one careful owner, from a Kuzma Dealer at a great price. I always wanted a XL DC for some years now. I just love the look of it, it's solid very high quality engineering, it's flexibility with being able to use multiple arms, it's simpleness and that all of it's components are separate. Plus in the future, I can upgrade if I wanted to with the AIR kit.

I think for hifi equipment you have to like the look of the products especially TT's as it is a very tactile product.

Yes, the phono stage is very important too. In fact I would say it is up there with the TT, tonearm and cartridge as an equally important component in the hifi chain. As mentioned in my post on this thread, I initially had the Rega Aura when I first bought the XL DC in July last year. I didn't buy the used one owner CH P1 until November last year, as like the XL DC, one came up on the second hand market at a great price. The P1 was another huge step-up from the Rega Aura. I bought it from liking the look of the CH Precision range (like the XL DC), it's great online reviews from professional Reviewers and Owners (like the XL DC) and it's fantastic flexibility (also like the XL DC), and that you can further upgrade it as time goes by to mono with separate power supplies etc.
I also know that like the XL DC I won't need to sell it in the future and will most probably stay with me for very long time if not for good.
If you can't afford or don't like the look, or don't have a platform to support the XL DC or Stabi M, the Stabi Reference is a great TT and I would say the best bang for the buck in the Kuzma range. If you can't afford, don't like the look, or don't have a suitable platform to also not being able to support the Stabi Reference, the Kuzma Stabi S with say the 4Point 9" or 11" arm is also a great TT setup with great performance (as shown in reviews and Owners, with people saying it is a giant slayer against TT's costing a lot more) and also made to a high quality like all Kuzma products.

If prefer a direct drive and can afford a brand new Technics SL-1000R or better an SP-10R on a high mass plinth but also don't have a suitable platform to take such weight, I would go for a second hand GrandPrix Audio Monaco V1.5 or even better a V2.0 fitted with a Kuzma 4Point 11" tonearm and a cartridge of choice that will be a perfect match for the Kuzma 4Point and your chosen phono stage.
 
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Bonesy Jonesy

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If you can't afford or don't like the look, or don't have a platform to support the XL DC or Stabi M, the Stabi Reference is a great TT and I would say the best bang for the buck in the Kuzma range. If you can't afford, don't like the look, or don't have a suitable platform to also not being able to support the Stabi Reference, the Kuzma Stabi S with say the 4Point 9" or 11" arm is also a great TT setup with great performance (as shown in reviews and Owners, with people saying it is a giant slayer against TT's costing a lot more) and also made to a high quality like all Kuzma products.

If prefer a direct drive and can afford a brand new Technics SL-1000R or better an SP-10R on a high mass plinth but also don't have a suitable platform to take such weight, I would go for a second hand GrandPrix Audio Monaco V1.5 or even better a V2.0 fitted with a Kuzma 4Point 11" tonearm and a cartridge of choice that will be a perfect match for the Kuzma 4Point and your chosen phono stage.
Hi 'jsec', forgot to say that if it was me and you like the look of the Kuzma Reference, buy this TT and one of the Kuzma 4Point arms i.e. the 11" or even better the 14" with say a low impedance high quality cartridge first and a phono stage that has the flexibility of both a trans-impedance current input as well as a MM / high impedance MC input (i.e. CH P1, Van Den Hul The Grail, Channel D Lino or Seta Sutherland Loco etc.) so you could use a high quality matching SUT for other types of cartridges so you have all music tastes and sounds covered.
 
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jsec

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Hi 'jsec', forgot to say that if it was me and you like the look of the Kuzma Reference, buy this TT and one of the Kuzma 4Point arms i.e. the 11" or even better the 14" with say a low impedance high quality cartridge first and a phono stage that has the flexibility of both a trans-impedance current input as well as a MM / high impedance MC input (i.e. CH P1, Van Den Hul The Grail, Channel D Lino or Seta Sutherland Loco etc.) so you could use a high quality matching SUT for other types of cartridges so you have all music tastes and sounds covered.
Thanks Bonesy Jonesy.
 
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sjs

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Hi Ron, No not yet as I haven't heard the Grand Prix Monaco nor the Parabolica. It is on my wish / hit list. No I didn't talk to the Owner & Dealer of the system I was listening to about the Grand Prix Monaco. We only talked about the Kuzma TT's and tonearms. He loved the 4Point 14" that was mounted on the Stabi Reference saying it was one rock steady amazing arm and superior to the 11". He has also recently been appointed as one of the UK's CH Precision Dealer. So a Kuzma XL Air with the Safir 9 a top cartridge and a full CH Precision System linked to the TOTL Living Voice Speakers would be one hell of a system to listen to.

However, I can add that another Dealer (who is a Rega Reference Dealer and who I bought the P10 & Aura from) who also used to be one of the UK Dealers for Kuzma and Grand Prix Audio who has many years experience and and knowledge in the hifi world, said early last year to me that if he had to choose just one turntable money no object he would choose the Grand Prix Audio Monaco V2.0 with a Kuzma 4Point 14" arm. When I asked him why he said due to it's performance like listening to reel to reel tapes, it's build quality, the engineering technology and it's amazing speed stability, and that because it is not a high mass turntable and it's small footprint size is a very practical turntable. He is also a UK Technics Dealer. When I asked him about the SL-1000R and SP-10R he said the Monaco was far superior in performance on all accounts including V1.5.

So if I had the funds to have a second TT, it would for sure be a Grand Prix Audio Monaco which would really complement my XL DC.

It would be fantastic to hear a Monaco V3.0 vs a Kuzma XL Air both with the new Kuzma Safir 9 tonearm and a top cartridge with the new CH Precision P10 using it's current input. I think this set up would be end game for most on the analogue source front .
Maybe some lucky people will at this years Munich hifi show along with the CH L10 and two M10's linked to TOTL Living Voice Speakers o_O. This for sure would satisfy even the people who can afford the best systems in the world.
The Monaco with 4 Point 14 is a great combination, with stability and fluidity.

The Stabi R with Safir was also excellent, and some visitors at Munich preferred it.
 

Bonesy Jonesy

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Thanks Bonesy Jonesy.
Hey 'jsec', I noticed last night that there is a GrandPrix Audio Parabolica TT for sale on Audiogon ! Fit it with a Kuzma 4Point 11" or 14" and you are ready to go !
 
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jsec

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Hey 'jsec', I noticed last night that there is a GrandPrix Audio Parabolica TT for sale on Audiogon ! Fit it with a Kuzma 4Point 11" or 14" and you are ready to go !
This is very interesting and leads to another discussion, what are the risks getting used TT from over the sea? I'm based in Finland and as tempting those TTs would be, I a bit hesitant on getting them. A dac would be simpler, but TT sounds risky to me.
 

Bonesy Jonesy

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This is very interesting and leads to another discussion, what are the risks getting used TT from over the sea? I'm based in Finland and as tempting those TTs would be, I a bit hesitant on getting them. A dac would be simpler, but TT sounds risky to me.
I would say the opposite i.e. a DAC is full of electronic components to say a belt drive turntable.

I understand your concerns though 'jsec' with this particular TT as it is direct drive and has I would guess sophisticated electronics for it's amazing speed accuracy and stability.

On the other hand, Grand Prix Audio make some of the finest and highest quality hifi components on the planet so even though you are buying a used item, it's build quality is second to none.

If you are very interested in it, there is no harm in asking the Owner key questions including any possibly guarantee (i.e. say 3 months) if it didn't work properly and it had to be sent to Grand Prix Audio for repair or the nearest Grand Prix Audio Dealer nearest to you.

p.s. I have no affiliation or personal interest in this TT being advertised nor do I know the Owner.
 
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Bonesy Jonesy

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I would say the opposite i.e. a DAC is full of electronic components to say a belt drive turntable.

I understand your concerns though 'jsec' with this particular TT as it is direct drive and has I would guess sophisticated electronics for it's amazing speed accuracy and stability.

On the other hand, Grand Prix Audio make some of the finest and highest quality hifi components on the planet so even though you are buying a used item, it's build quality is second to none.

If you are very interested in it, there is no harm in asking the Owner key questions including any possibly guarantee (i.e. say 3 months) if it didn't work properly and it had to be sent to Grand Prix Audio for repair or the nearest Grand Prix Audio Dealer nearest to you.

p.s. I have no affiliation or personal interest in this TT being advertised nor do I know the Owner.
Just noticed 'jsec' that the advert on Audiogon for this Grand Prix Parabolica TT is from a 'Verified Dealer'. So you may be able to get a proper warranty / guarantee for this TT or at least a returns policy if something goes wrong with it.
 
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Bonesy Jonesy

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Just noticed 'jsec' that the advert on Audiogon for this Grand Prix Parabolica TT is from a 'Verified Dealer'. So you may be able to get a proper warranty / guarantee for this TT or at least a returns policy if something goes wrong with it.
Just sent you some PM's 'jsec'
 
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hongkongfoufou

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I heard most ZYX cartridges and also have one but ZYX sound is not my favorite. If I’m not mistaken Kuzma cartridges are ZYX in an aluminum body. Sometimes a regular cartridge matches well with the right amp, speaker combination and performs better than a preferable cartridge
So, what is your preferred cartridge, please? Thanks
 

hongkongfoufou

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I have the SL-1000R and I can tell you, it's the second better turntable I have heard. I must choose the cartridge with attention.
Because I have VPI Classic 3 with Art-9, I have choose the same cartridge for the Technics.
Big mistake!
With Art-9, Technics sounds like my Esoteric K-03XS....yes yes...With Zyx 4D, Technics sounds like a vinyl. Money for nothing sounds better than my Mark Levinson N360S.... Don't forget that my loudspeakers are Magnepan 3.7i....and I never heard this introduction of this song like that....big bass with better dynamics and this turntable has any hum.
I have rumble with VPI and I have resolved the problem with a Qkore6.
So association turntable/arms/cartridges is very important.
 
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hongkongfoufou

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Air Tight Opus 1, TechDas TCD-01, Kondo IO-M.
Hello,

Thank you very much.
I agree with you for the Kondo.
The best demonstration at Munich with a turntable is with Kondo and Kondo products.
I hope I can buy Air Tight PC1 Coda.
Regards
 
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DasguteOhr

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I have the SL-1000R and I can tell you, it's the second better turntable I have heard. I must choose the cartridge with attention.
Because I have VPI Classic 3 with Art-9, I have choose the same cartridge for the Technics.
Big mistake!
With Art-9, Technics sounds like my Esoteric K-03XS....yes yes...With Zyx 4D, Technics sounds like a vinyl. Money for nothing sounds better than my Mark Levinson N360S.... Don't forget that my loudspeakers are Magnepan 3.7i....and I never heard this introduction of this song like that....big bass with better dynamics and this turntable has any hum.
I have rumble with VPI and I have resolved the problem with a Qkore6.
So association turntable/arms/cartridges is very important.
the technics has the high-torque motor so that brighter tuned cartridge can quickly sound thinner and more unnatural. a good match was always dynavector or emt cartridge because they sound fuller in the lower midrange and bass. exsample emt with technics have real punch makes real fun.
 

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