How Good a CD Transport is Required to Sound Better than Streaming?

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There seems to be a fairly solid consensus (Lucasz Ficus, LL21, Al M, etc.) that CD playback or computer file playback, or perhaps both, sound better than streaming (assuming, of course, that all other variables, including the DAC, are held constant).

But I assume that one cannot assume that any device that can spin a CD necessarily will achieve better sound quality than will streaming.

So how good a CD transport does one need to achieve CD playback which sounds better than streaming? Where do the lines (rising sound quality of better transport and streaming sound quality) cross?
 
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You are correct on each point, Peter.

I will not be offering a CD option to visitors.

My personal situation is that I have less than 20 CDs of favorite titles (U2 Joshua Tree, Famous Blue Raincoat, Madonna True Blue, Steve Winwood Roll With It) that embody digital recordings. It’s just not worth it, to me personally, to buy a new component, and to take up a Nothing rack shelf, to maximize the sound quality of so few CDs.
Okay, for 20 best CDs (I have 7,000), a Denon 1500 or Kyocera 310x should suffice. They aren't SOTA but great mid-fi (upgrade the power caps though on the Kyocera). Inexpensive and beats most lower costs streaming. My current transport is great but delicate compared to a Jay's Audio or other high end transport. Current transport:
Arcam Delta 270 CD player with 15+ high quality audio filter, power and bypass capacitors as CD transport (meh as CD player). Uses the Philips CDM 9 swing arm mechanism.
 
This is a slippery slope. Roon or XDMS is hugely more convenient than playing vinyl or finding a CD in a large collection — I can relate since I’ve long ago given up hope of organizing my physical media. Where this road leads to is having algorithms make your listening choices for you. Pretty soon, why even bother taking the trouble to select an album to play from Qobuz or Tidal or your ripped collection. Surely, Roon Radio can do that for you. Let AI do all the thinking for you while you sip your wine. No thinking needed anymore. Roon Radio can play uninterrupted 24/7. But then it becomes background schmaltz that you’re not even paying attention to anymore. It’s elevator music.

As retro as it might sound, I like the physical effort in playing vinyl or a physical disc, even if that’s (gasp!) starting to happen less often than I like. I recently played through several sides of a fabulous collection of Schubert Lieder by the legendary baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau with the pianist Gerald Moore on a DG box set. Yes, you have to get up every 20 minutes to change the sides. How retro! But it keeps you engaged. Then there’s the beautiful album notes, each song meticulously explained with wonderful translations and background information. The analog mastering is very lovely and both voice and piano sound natural with no digital harshness.

We are all regressing to a world where AI algorithms decide what we watch on streaming media like Netflix, what music we hear on Spotify or Roon Radio, what news we consume each day and bit by bit (no pun intended!), our likes are being sculpted for us by machines. It’s a dystopian future but one that’s hard to prevent from happening….
I am fortunate to have a recording storage room adjacent to my listening room. I use Can-Am metal drawer cabinet CD disc storage organized by genre alphabetically (well, about 1000 of my 7000 CDs are still not in the cases). I have built-in LP & 78 wall storage like most people, 78s occupying the bottom shelves. My CD playback is so good, that I split my time between LPs and CDs now with less playing 78s or R2R tapes.
 
I’m glad you brought out the most important factor in all this discussion: the enjoyment of music. To me, when I listen to the greatest jazz musicians of the 20th century — Duke Ellington, John Coltrane, Ella Fitzgerald etc. — or the greatest popular singers — Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash etc. — or the greatest rock and roll — The Beatles, Bob Dylan etc. — an inescapable fact is that their greatest albums were recorded in analog, in mono, and meant to be played back on vinyl. I find the digital remastering of any of these albums on Roon via Qobuz or Tidal, even played back on a very high quality tubed DAC, my Lampizator Pacific, a pale imitation of what these albums sound like on vinyl on my restored Garrard 301 with a Miyajima Zero Infinity mono cartridge. So, for me personally, it is integral to my enjoyment of the greatest musical riches of the 20th century in these musical genres to hear them as they were intended: on mono and on vinyl. Much as I like my Lampi Pacifi, it is simply no match for the Garrard 301/Miyajima Zero cartridge. I recently bought a whole pile of Time Life Big Band music from the 1940-1950s or even earlier and it is stunning how good these old mono recordings sound. If I try one of these on Roon, in 2 minutes, I stop it. I can’t bear to hear the screechy sound that emanates from Roon on these great albums. If you haven’t heard Frank Sinatra on mono on a great turntable and mono cartridge, you haven’t heard how good his voice sounds. The Roon reproduction is a grotesque imitation of the original vinyl sound.

That‘s why for me vinyl will always continue to be a source of musical enjoyment. If I was forced on to a Roon diet, I’d stop listening to these great albums, so intolerable is the reproduction quality on digital.
Mentioning Sinatra, try listening to the great Andreas Meyer remastered mid-1940s Columbias on Frank Sinatra the Columbia Years on Sony Legacy. Superb! As good as excellent 50s mono recordings with great depth, openness and fine tonality.

I have some of the original 78s, using a Grado 78 cartridge on an Ultracraft Arm, VPI 19-4... The 78s are dark, muddy, lower resolution, sounding like poor quality recordings. So unlike my 1930s black label Columbia pop 78s. So, 78s could be poorly recorded but greatly remastered and digitized (my entire Marston and Romophone CD collection of vocal and piano recordings are just like that and not available for streaming).

 
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Thank you for performing this test, Lee! Yes, your system now is truly a “universal player”!
I think there are good CDS players on the market. I am sorry but a Marantz CD player or any CD player that I have have tried and listened to does not compare to the Wadax server/Akasa/Wadax Dac. I had the Wadax reference latest version drive at one of my show rooms and it is extremely good but to be honest I prefer the Server. Maybe its the optical connect, maybe its streaming maybe I have a little faith there's magic in the night but so far I prefer that combo for listening to music, listening to music long term, listening to music that carries me away, listening to music that makes me forget and allows me to relax and get transported away.
The CH player/transport is really great and with their 1.2 version of the DAC its a serious playback system but alas the boys in Madrid have made something truly magical and special. Its something that once you have lived with you can't go back. Yes I know there are lots of haters for some silly reasons but as I have said no one sells you a Wadax, A Wadax is something you buy and something you cherish afterwards. Its a journey ender.
It is now publix knowledge that we were in New Mexico at Robert Harley's home and listening space. He too has a Wadax system he just gave the Server product of the year. I have heard this system at Mike L's, I have heard it at Robert Harley, I own one and lived with it for over a year. I have been many times to clients with other great playback systems from dCS, Total Dac, MSB and CH Precision. These are all great products from excellent companies however IMO the Wadax is , as I have stated before a transcendent product, a product that comes along once in a generation that changes the way we look at something.
Yes it is expensive, yes it is large, yes they are unusual looking and my god they are wonderful. Is it for everyone, of course not and IMO its not fair to mention these type of things in the same breath. Comparing Burger King to the French Laundry makes no sense either.
It has been reviewed by the top reviewers in the world and for my knowledge it is the only product that they are all agreed upon. I think that's interesting as well.
Expecting a Cd player to sound better ....
 
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one more thing. There certainly can be Cd players that are better than streamers but like everything else all streamers are not the same, all CD players are not the same. High End Audio has many levels and they are certainly not equal or equivalent.
Finding something that matches your needs, system and budget will possibly have a huge factor in your final choice.
 
I can assure you this is way overblown. I have only had two fail in 6,600 discs. And those were the notorious "target" era pressings.
I have 7,000 and also only 2 defects (bad quality issues). Also, I've burned 1000s of CDs using only Mamiya Gold, black/not rosy discs or Taiyo Yuden/JVC professional discs of my recordings/masterings. Only discs that failed were left in a car windshield for several months.
 
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Basically, Roon Radio is for the musical dilettante, folks who want a broad sampling of different kinds of music, but not go too deep into any one specific genre. In my book, the true music lover and collector is usually someone who wants to get deep into one genre, and usually spends their entire life collecting obscure records from that genre. Such a person usually has a barebones system, and the bulk of their time and money goes into their record collection.

I can think of no finer example of this breed than Joe Bussard, the ultimate collector of obscure folk music, most of which is not only not on Roon, but heck is not even on 33 rpm vinyl, but only on impossible to find 78 rpm records. For 70 years, Bussard has spent his entire life chasing down rare 78 rpm records of obscure folk music, wading through streams, walking up forests and doing whatever it takes to find that ultra rare record. Most of his huge collection is so rare that he might possess the only copy in existence. The Smithsonian has had their eyes for decades on his priceless collection. But old man Joe, he’s 85, and he’s going nowhere. Plays his rare 78 rpm vinyl on Technics record players on a single ancient mono Altec Laguna speaker — why waste silly money on a stereo when all his records are mono anyway.

Ladies and gentleman, here is a true music lover, perhaps the last of his breed, a true American original. For such a person, Roon Radio can never suffice to quench his thirst.


I'm not quite as devoted, but I have a 3,500 LP/CD/78 collection of Jewish oriented recordings (Cantorial, Yiddish, Hebrew, Klezmer, Comedy). Most are mint and there are several which had a very limited pressing (50-100). Great video!
 
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I admire the late Joe Bussard and his single minded deep dive into early American music. He's saved a lot of recorded music that would have disappeared. I suspect he knows more about his little corner of music than anyone on earth. I enjoyed hearing him mention playing with and recording early John Fahey.

But I suppose the other side of a deep obsession can be a narrowing of perspective. He doesn't seem to be able to understand or appreciate music outside his chosen obsession. Hi comments to the effect of "no good country music after 1955" or "jazz died during the depression" reflect someone who is full of opinion but closed to truly understanding music outside his expertise.

All music springs from the same well. The particular music he loved came from the British Isles and Africa -- I wonder if he was even interested in the origins of his "original" American music. A "true" music lover? I don't think so...
Being locked in some time is a real hazard of old age and also very much of this game. Change in music is a fundamental response to changing culture. Becoming locked off, old and brittle is very possibly also locking off the possibilities of growth, transformation, discovery and renewal. Some seek comfort only in the known. This can be the cost of having a more rigidly fixed library. But music is a living, breathing, dynamic succession that reflects developing human spirit and evolution.

BTW the whole AI thing was a very weird off-ramp thing that fundamentally doesn’t at all reflect what music streaming is actually all about…. a new way of accessing a more diverse musical universe and a new level of freedom and expansion in the joyful unlocking of far greater music discovery.
 
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Haven't listened to CD for over 18 months. Played some through a Samsung BD player (yes, literally $10 bucks from Goodwill) with HDMI and my old Pioneer Elite multi player through coaxial. Both were very enjoyable, with few digital grunge exceptions (bad mastering?), and I could hear no meaningful difference in general sound quality when played through Yamaha Pre/pro.

I also have lowbrow Spotify, and find that enjoyable as well and a nice way to explore music. I'll stop at enjoyable, since one would presume that enjoyable is a reasonable goal in listening, rather than raving about absolute distinctions and working hard to make it un-enjoyable. So, maybe my hearing is shot, my brain is shot, or my taste is shot, and I have been released from digital audiophile prison at last through some form of deterioration. The CDs played through the players does sound generally better than the Spotify streaming stuff.

It is my contention that the most important part of digital playback is the analog translation part, the digital parts have become well nigh caught up.

After all the digital battles and mountains climbed in the past, that I can have rewarding and enjoyable sessions with digital, even compressed musics, is pretty nice. They used to drive me up the wall.

If you want to hear what digital used to be like i.e. the solid state, cold, flat brittle stuff that ruined radio and music for over 20 years, some of the bad, digitally recorded vinyls are good reminders. They are execrable tokens that make me grateful for current digital options. (There are also outstanding digitally recorded vinyl records, it is just that the bad ones hearken back to the digital dark ages quite well).
 
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Haven't listened to CD for over 18 months. Played some through a Samsung BD player (yes, literally $10 bucks from Goodwill) with HDMI and my old Pioneer Elite multi player through coaxial. Both were very enjoyable, with few digital grunge exceptions (bad mastering?), and I could hear no meaningful difference in general sound quality when played through Yamaha Pre/pro.

I also have lowbrow Spotify, and find that enjoyable as well and a nice way to explore music. I'll stop at enjoyable, since one would presume that enjoyable is a reasonable goal in listening, rather than raving about absolute distinctions and working hard to make it un-enjoyable. So, maybe my hearing is shot, my brain is shot, or my taste is shot, and I have been released from digital audiophile prison at last through some form of deterioration. The CDs played through the players does sound generally better than the Spotify streaming stuff.

It is my contention that the most important part of digital playback is the analog translation part, the digital parts have become well nigh caught up.

After all the digital battles and mountains climbed in the past, that I can have rewarding and enjoyable sessions with digital, even compressed musics, is pretty nice. They used to drive me up the wall.

If you want to hear what digital used to be like i.e. the solid state, cold, flat brittle stuff that ruined radio and music for over 20 years, some of the bad, digitally recorded vinyls are good reminders. They are execrable tokens that make me grateful for current digital options. (There are also outstanding digitally recorded vinyl records, it is just that the bad ones hearken back to the digital dark ages quite well).
Where and what are the analog parts of a cd transport ?
 
I personally enjoy CDs more than I do streaming. I just purchased a new Vitus Masterpiece Transport to maximize our playback experience even further - it will be here in a few months. To me they sound better and provide a richer overall presentation of the music. Don‘t get me wrong, I enjoy streaming too and we already have that maximized, and actually play it more because I’m either too busy to get up and change CDs or records, or I’m just too lazy. Records continue to be first, CDs second, and streaming last, but I could be satisfied disposing of any two of them and be completely content with whatever we have left. They all are good.
 
I personally enjoy CDs more than I do streaming. I just purchased a new Vitus Masterpiece Transport to maximize our playback experience even further - it will be here in a few months. To me they sound better and provide a richer overall presentation of the music. Don‘t get me wrong, I enjoy streaming too and we already have that maximized, and actually play it more because I’m either too busy to get up and change CDs or records, or I’m just too lazy. Records continue to be first, CDs second, and streaming last, but I could be satisfied disposing of any two of them and be completely content with whatever we have left. They all are good.
Agreed. All 3 formats are capable of presenting exceptionally good sound quality. If effort is put toward obtaining high quality hardware and focused set up. Lines drawn in the sand are tiresome.
Charles
 
I am very interested in the results of a CDT3-Mk3 survey. I note that Jay's Audio Transports have reported by him as having a plethora of power regulators, hopefully of audiophile quality and not 50 cent computer quality. Although 6 moons reviewed the former unit's transport versus the CDT2-MK2 transport (Philips CDM 4), the current latter models use plastic CDM 4/19 units while many high end units still use the CDT3-Mk3's Philips CDM Pro-2 Pro-LF transports such as Accustic Arts and mbl in Germany (both CD-Pro2LF), Nagra (CD-Pro2LF) and Soulution (Esoteric/Teac) in Switzerland, Métronome (CD-Pro2LF) in France. Jay indicated that the CDT3 is superior. However, the CDT2 also has an optional upgrade Jay's Qsuspension NSE vibration spring/post mounted transport and CD Qstab stabilizer. I appreciate any additional information (the interior of the CDT 2 looked half empty while the CDT3 looked full of parts)...
 
I am very interested in the results of a CDT3-Mk3 survey. I note that Jay's Audio Transports have reported by him as having a plethora of power regulators, hopefully of audiophile quality and not 50 cent computer quality. Although 6 moons reviewed the former unit's transport versus the CDT2-MK2 transport (Philips CDM 4), the current latter models use plastic CDM 4/19 units while many high end units still use the CDT3-Mk3's Philips CDM Pro-2 Pro-LF transports such as Accustic Arts and mbl in Germany (both CD-Pro2LF), Nagra (CD-Pro2LF) and Soulution (Esoteric/Teac) in Switzerland, Métronome (CD-Pro2LF) in France. Jay indicated that the CDT3 is superior. However, the CDT2 also has an optional upgrade Jay's Qsuspension NSE vibration spring/post mounted transport and CD Qstab stabilizer. I appreciate any additional information (the interior of the CDT 2 looked half empty while the CDT3 looked full of parts)...
The current Accustic Arts top level CD transport is the Drive II. It does not utilize the obsolete Phillips drive mechanism. It uses the new production Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 drive mechanism unit which is metal rather than plastic.

Other brands utilizing this latest Stream Unlimited unit are Aqua Hi-Fi, Audionet, Gryphon (Ethos) and Pro-Ject (Their top model the RS2T). I’ve heard the Pro-Ject RS2T and it sounds splendid.

Charles
 
The current Accustic Arts top level CD transport is the Drive II. It does not utilize the obsolete Phillips drive mechanism. It uses the new production Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 drive mechanism unit which is metal rather than plastic.

Other brands utilizing this latest Stream Unlimited unit are Aqua Hi-Fi, Audionet, Gryphon (Ethos) and Pro-Ject (Their top model the RS2T). I’ve heard the Pro-Ject RS2T and it sounds splendid.

Charles
The information I cited was from a 2018(?) 6moons review, so it is dated. Yes, I have read about the new Stream Unlimited transport.

The Pro-ject unit is very light weight and requires an outboard linear power supply with another power cable (high end required?) of which I read that the LPS+ is$750+, total cost about $4000 (shipping/tax).

I still don't know if the Pro-ject or the Jay's Audio CDT3 Mk3 are basically oriented towards resolution or exhibit great musicality.

I am currently using highly upgraded Arcam Delta 250 transport only and Delta 270 CD player transport (back-up) with additional audio quality regulators, power, filter, tantalum caps throughout. They "sound" great but are prone to failure (250 had two boards fail) but the CDM9's are still available new and used in good condition. So, I am searching for a great sounding, durable transport under $5,000.

The PS Audio transport sounded terrible in my system with 3 different DACs. PS Audio employees are very nice but that piece of equipment-yuk!
 
We’ve enjoyed our EMM Labs TX2 Transport. We are now awaiting delivery on a Vitus MP-T201 Mk.11 Transport. It uses a modified Philips CD Pro 2 LF.
 
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I have not heard the Jay’s Audio CD transports. I do not doubt that they are as good as advertised. They consistently garner excellent word of mouth feedback. I have no reason at all to question that.

The Pro-Ject RS2T is by their edict/design)Box series) is diminutive and lightweight , so you are correct. The irony is the sound presentation is large and immersive.

They implemented the wall wart SMPS very well as it sounds terrific! One can take it even further with a good quality external LPS. I believe that the key to its terrific sound has much to do with the Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 drive utilization.

It is the lowest cost of entry to obtain this excellent drive mechanism. The other brands that also have chosen the Stream Unlimited are 10K (Aqua Hifi) and above.

In my opinion you could not go wrong with either the RS2T or the Jay’s Audio. If you’re bothered by the “shoebox “ design of the RS2T then go with the larger and heavier Jay’s Audio (Especially the CDT3 MK III).

I don’t have anything negative to say about Jay’s Audio as they’ve earned an excellent reputation. I’m just very familiar with the RS2T. It’s both high resolution (And nuanced) and yet very musically engaging for sure. It will do your CD collection justice. Again, I feel you’d be very pleased with either of these two options.

Good luck and best wishes,
Charles
 
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