Are we judging sound quality wrong because setup and room vary so much?

Lee

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I was intrigued by the best sounding systems thread…but if I have learned anything this year it’s how incredibly important room acoustics and overall setup are to achieving the right sound.

What if the system setup is (my current guess based on three systems) is 60% of sound quality?

Maybe we need to ask setup gurus like Jim Smith or Sterling Trayle about the best systems…

Maybe the room is the most important component…

Recently I went to Jim Smith’s listening room and was super impressed by the quality of sound of 16/44 files over $10K Fyne 703 speakers, $10K integrated Pass INT-60, and a $7K Lascala DAC With two REL subs.

It may be very difficult to make absolute statements unless each system is setup by a noted expert I believe.

What do you think?
 

Solypsa

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Yes
 
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Mike Lavigne

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the other variable is listening level and main music choices. at modest listening levels, and with simple small scale music choices, room differences are not as significant. girl with guitar and some solo instruments, work in many different type rooms.

but step things up dynamically or scale wise and now overall headroom of everything (including acoustic reflection handling) has significant influences.

i went to the Puget Audio Fest with a fresh sonic reference of a 44/16 streaming file of a live 'grunge' concert in my head that had multiple layers and dynamics and detail. great vocals. really no system at the show was capable of getting very close to what i heard in my room. a cut that blew me away in my own room did not get even a notice at the show. and i can appreciate why not. it sounded most times like a confused mess. some rooms maybe reached addition by subtraction level.....at best.

this was not a source issue. or even a signal path issue. or even a speaker issue 'much'. it merely demonstrated to me the gap between a quick thrown together system and fully set up mature system. no matter the gear cost.

easy to find and play the cut.....but that's where it ended. failure to execute.

other music could be pretty good. just keep it simple and many rooms were ok.

what might be the implications of this experience on how i view both music and gear choices? could be pretty significant. for instance, this 16/44 cut in my room betters most of the vinyl i heard at the show. not by a little. chew on that. and i would expect other dacs in my room would be close enough to likely say the same thing. so i'm not saying just the Wadax would do that.
 
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treitz3

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Some of the best sounding systems (setups) I have ever heard were in the strangest of places/setups and it all boiled down to acoustics. Gear did not matter (to a point).

Proper volume can make or break a system.

Tom
 

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tima

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I was intrigued by the best sounding systems thread…but if I have learned anything this year it’s how incredibly important room acoustics and overall setup are to achieving the right sound.

What if the system setup is (my current guess based on three systems) is 60% of sound quality?

Maybe we need to ask setup gurus like Jim Smith or Sterling Trayle about the best systems…

Maybe the room is the most important component…

Recently I went to Jim Smith’s listening room and was super impressed by the quality of sound of 16/44 files over $10K Fyne 703 speakers, $10K integrated Pass INT-60, and a $7K Lascala DAC With two REL subs.

It may be very difficult to make absolute statements unless each system is setup by a noted expert I believe.

What do you think?

First, regardless of "best sounding systems", I believe it is possible to enjoy music - to truly appreciate your favorite recordings - without perfectly optimized room acoustics or speaker setup done by experts.

The "which component is most important?" question is eternal in this hobby. Room acoustics, electrical infrastructure, resonance management, and 'setup' are in there with everything else - source, amplification and speakers.

I know several guys who bought rooms built for them by experts only to tear it all out, others are happy with their expert built room. I know people who are happy with the room setup expert they hired to arrange their speakers, etc. I know people who get lots of satisfaction in trial and error learning for themselves.

Are we judging sound quality wrong because setup and room vary so much? Well, we see lots of videos posted and judgements passed without knowing anything about setup and room. If we like what we hear in a video should we automatically assume we like it mostly because of accomplished setup and room? Or are we judging it wrong. I don't know the answer.

To me, for those uncertain about their room and setup, more important than hiring an expert to setup your room, would be hiring an expert to teach/train you how to listen, and listen so that you trust your own ears. Start with live music then move to the audio room.
 

christoph

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Some of the best sounding systems (setups) I have ever heard were in the strangest of places/setups and it all boiled down to acoustics. Gear did not matter (to a point).

Proper volume can make or break a system.

Tom
My awkward upstairs listening room with the Acoustats sounds so much better than anyone (including myself) could imagine :D
 

Hear Here

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My awkward upstairs listening room with the Acoustats sounds so much better than anyone (including myself) could imagine :D
I wonder how many systems include the wrong TYPE of speaker for the room they were bought to perform in.

I note that you have horns in your "awkward" listening room. I too use horns in my acoustically difficult room. After trying other types (conventional box and electrostatic), I've concluded that horns suit my room, though perhaps omnis would be ideal as half my room (including kitchen and dining areas) are behind the speakers. However, the omnis I've listened to (German Physics and MBL) offer nowhere near the imaging I get from my Avantgarde horns, so I'll accept a compromised sound when I'm behind the speakers.

However I have concluded that for many particularly challenging rooms, horns are probably the best bet if you can accept a small sweet spot.

How many of us have questioned our choice of speaker type, or have we bought from a blinkered experience, or have we moved speakers bought for a different room into a new environment? Peter
 
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christoph

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I note that you have horns in your "awkward" listening room. I too use horns in my acoustically difficult room.
The Acoustats are Electrostats ;)
 
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cmarin

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First, regardless of "best sounding systems", I believe it is possible to enjoy music - to truly appreciate your favorite recordings - without perfectly optimized room acoustics or speaker setup done by experts.

The "which component is most important?" question is eternal in this hobby. Room acoustics, electrical infrastructure, resonance management, and 'setup' are in there with everything else - source, amplification and speakers.

I know several guys who bought rooms built for them by experts only to tear it all out, others are happy with their expert built room. I know people who are happy with the room setup expert they hired to arrange their speakers, etc. I know people who get lots of satisfaction in trial and error learning for themselves.

Are we judging sound quality wrong because setup and room vary so much? Well, we see lots of videos posted and judgements passed without knowing anything about setup and room. If we like what we hear in a video should we automatically assume we like it mostly because of accomplished setup and room? Or are we judging it wrong. I don't know the answer.

To me, for those uncertain about their room and setup, more important than hiring an expert to setup your room, would be hiring an expert to teach/train you how to listen, and listen so that you trust your own ears. Start with live music then move to the audio room.
Hi Tima,

My direct personal experience, in my room with two sets of different electronics on two separate occasions with the same set up expert, has been that the biggest difference by far in the sound quality/engagement level was the result of the set up - without question.

With the same room and the same equipment, my direct experience has been that the difference between an optimal setup and a less than optimal setup can be night and day - significantly greater than the difference I’ve ever experienced form a component change. And a significantly greater return in the benefit to cost ratio than any component change by far.

As several folks familiar with my system who were present before and after the setup was optimized remarked: “it’s as if you now have a completely different system”. And that’s taking into account that the system was no slouch before the new setup.
 
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Hear Here

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The Acoustats are Electrostats ;)
I made a hasty stab at what your speakers were by glancing at your Profile Photo! The speakers featured look astonishingly like horns! Sorry about that - I see you use horns in your downstairs system.

You mention electrostatics so I should tell you that Martin Logan 13As were pretty disastrous in my own room - not because I don't like electrostatics, but because they don't like my room! Since these speakers squirt 50% of their energy from the back of the speaker, they rely on some form of wall behind them to harvest this energy. My " rear wall" is 12 ft behind one and 15 ft behind the other - at an angle of course - and the wall consists of floor-to-ceiling glazing. Not ideal for electrostatics, particularly MLs, though Quads sounded rather less upset by having nothing behind them! Both the MLs and Quads sounded better from my dining area that the horns of course. Peter
 

Hear Here

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My direct personal experience, in my room with two sets of different electronics on two separate occasions with the same set up expert, has been that the biggest difference by far in the sound quality/engagement level was the result of the set up - without question.
After choosing the right type of speaker to suit ones room's features, yes careful set-up must be second in importance. So much extra can be extracted from speakers by careful placement and adjustment
 

DSkip

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System setup is the greatest factor of any system. Many times what is considered a room issue can merely boil down to perceptively insignificant but acoustically dramatic adjustments. These elements do not merely apply to the speakers either.

Given the importance of this step, any US sales of Rosso Fiorentino speakers in the near future will include a ‘setup kit’ to help our clients do a small but significant part of a professional setup themselves. It will start as a trial run but I hope it gets enough positive feedback to become a staple.

I can say that proper setup is a huge amount of work. I have had clients ask me about the process and I share some things, but when it gets to a certain point I have to tell them no more. It’s not necessarily ‘hiding industry secrets’ as much as it is having too much information can actually completely destroy a system if not used properly. The professionals who do these setups are worth every penny they charge.
 
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Elliot G.

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I was intrigued by the best sounding systems thread…but if I have learned anything this year it’s how incredibly important room acoustics and overall setup are to achieving the right sound.

What if the system setup is (my current guess based on three systems) is 60% of sound quality?

Maybe we need to ask setup gurus like Jim Smith or Sterling Trayle about the best systems…

Maybe the room is the most important component…

Recently I went to Jim Smith’s listening room and was super impressed by the quality of sound of 16/44 files over $10K Fyne 703 speakers, $10K integrated Pass INT-60, and a $7K Lascala DAC With two REL subs.

It may be very difficult to make absolute statements unless each system is setup by a noted expert I believe.

What do you think?
These are lessons well learned and IMO that need to be experienced. Many are not aware of what can happen with proper set up and room acoustics adjustments. These are experiences that really are eye /ear opening and are required IMO to learn. Audio shows are not the final frontier and in fact not really close so if these are ones top experiences I believe they should seek out systems to elisten too that are mature, and properly set up and tuned. We all learn all the time if we open our mind and just let our guard and preconceived ideas put aside.
Its great Lee that you have let it happen and know get a much better result. Bravo
 

tima

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Hi Tima,

My direct personal experience, in my room with two sets of different electronics on two separate occasions with the same set up expert, has been that the biggest difference by far in the sound quality/engagement level was the result of the set up - without question.

With the same room and the same equipment, my direct experience has been that the difference between an optimal setup and a less than optimal setup can be night and day - significantly greater than the difference I’ve ever experienced form a component change. And a significantly greater return in the benefit to cost ratio than any component change by far.

As several folks familiar with my system who were present before and after the setup was optimized remarked: “it’s as if you now have a completely different system”. And that’s taking into account that the system was no slouch before the new setup.

Hi - I see you used Rives. I have been in houses with their work. How did you come to choose them?
 

cmarin

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Hi - I see you used Rives. I have been in houses with their work. How did you come to choose them?
Hi Tima,

I have to say that a great deal of the choice had to do with happenstance.

My current detached and dedicated music room was built over 13 years ago at the same time that we were remodeling the main house. Not that I know a lot now, but I have to say that at the time the music room was built I knew even less about music reproduction.

While I don't remember the details of how I chose Rives, I basically recall stumbling onto articles that stressed the importance of having a dedicated and designed music room. And Rives happened to be active in the business at the time.

But I also lucked out because Chris Houston, the engineer of the third album by the funk band War, was given the assignment by Rives to design the room. Chris visited during construction and worked together with my architect to put together in the end a good sounding, but also aesthetically pleasing room.
 

tima

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But I also lucked out because Chris Houston, the engineer of the third album by the funk band War, was given the assignment by Rives to design the room. Chris visited during construction and worked together with my architect to put together in the end a good sounding, but also aesthetically pleasing room.

Thanks for the follow-up cmarin. No doubt collaboration between an experienced audio engineer from the music recording business and your architect went a long way toward the success of your room! That's great.
 

exupgh12

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Maybe the room is the most important component…
+1

from my own experience, the room is the most critical part of a setup - i know the benefit i got from the same system just by turning it 90 degrees - now the room starts to function with the setup and not against the setup, and the upgrade result was an incredible success.

A friend of mine has an incredible setup made from CH amp + Zellaton Evo speakers, his room acoustics are a nightmare, the only way for him to overcome his room acoustics problems was using RC.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Thanks for the follow-up cmarin. No doubt collaboration between an experienced audio engineer from the music recording business and your architect went a long way toward the success of your room! That's great.
Chris Huston also did my design, and worked directly with my contractor. lots of very involved details, and had to be done precisely and with the right materials as these had acoustical properties. Chris visited my place once during the process.....

look in the LZ2 record jacket you will see he was one of the recording engineers. enjoyed playing that record with him and listening to his stories about that process. he said it was like herding cats.
 
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