Do Tubes Homogenize the Sound of Our Music?

[Kingrex]

A tube (model, brand), a particular tube pairing, a few vs many tubes in a particular component… I might buy into the “sameness” proposition but in general I’ve never had that sense from tubes. If there were a place i might be more suspicious of this it would be tube amps that sport many, many tubes to achieve high power output. In that case the sheer number of tubes might mask individual subtleties (plusses or minuses) to balance out the sound into a “sameness” but perhaps that was the intent of the design. I’m not an amp designer (totally ignorant) so I might be talking shit.

Why wouldn't the exact same be true for a SS designer that uses many transistors to create a lot of power as opposed to where only 1 or 2 transistor are used in a low power application.

 

[bonzo75]

Why wouldn't the exact same be true for a SS designer that uses many transistors to create a lot of power as opposed to where only 1 or 2 transistor are used in a low power application.

I think Gamut is one where they use only one transistor. Very good power amp

 

[morricab]

If you usually shift to tubes from SS at the average Joe, you will immediately get a better tone, timbre, organic feel, decay, flow, NS, call it what you will.

That said, SS requires more work, in terms of set up. Now, Mike's room, coupled with the lowest noise floor and excellent tweak/component matching, does the decay, flow, dynamic range, etc. When he adds tubes, they will increase his noise floor and add haziness, is my guess, from having heard the big 7 with 300b at his place. It is almost like his system is still, there is no component, and the music just emanates. I am sure I won't prefer the Thrax hybrid to the Dartzeel at his, though I did prefer the Thrax hybrid to Dart 468s on Stenheim Alumine 5 in a direct compare elsewhere. However, that is Mike, and in most cases, SS without much tuning, where many audiophiles just spend lavishly to set up big cones with big name amps, will sound similar to what Brad describes in Munich.

The Yamamura and Pnoe (with Mayer) both did something no other systems could do. The Yams have their own SS amp, and is the best speaker/system I have heard with Mike's though no similarity between the two. What the Yam does is exactly like what SETs horns do, yet with a lower noise floor, and higher microdynamic
inflection, using SS. Pietro mentioned that he tried many top end SETs from Shindo and Kondo and they did not work well with the Yams.

In Heihei's system which is fronted by a Lampi, the Audionet Stern and Heisenberg has been preferred by him to Mayer pre, Berning Quadratures, etc. I only compared it with Berning Quads, and the Audionet was quite superior on all fronts.

But these above are exceptions, and require a lot of set up and tuning and expense and serendipity.

I prefer Audioarts' FM acoustics-Zellaton to most valve systems except for the best SETs horns I have heard. Again, crazy expensive. In small systems, Jazzhead's was very good with all SS, but still too expensive

The use of Soulution and Dartzeel preamps into valve power amps, in preference to valve preamps, has been confirmed with more than one system from Allnic, Shindo, NAT, Tenor 75 OTL, and CAT. Smart use of SS sandwiched with valve amps and phonos leads to no loss of valve magic, in fact reduces noise floor, cleans up haze, improves drive and resolution. Yet, with Pnoe, all Mayer pre, phono, and power is better left to all valve instead of introducing SS in the middle

I preferred the Vitus and Luxman power amps were preferred to Kondo Kagura on Magico and to Ypsilon Aelius on Vivid, and I preferred the Vitus integrated to Luxman hybrid integrated on Tannoy Kensington. I am sure the Plium will sound great at Bob's or Bob's. There is an excellent video of a boulder system with old living voice horns (which were not the same as the current ones but more of a prototype)

So yes, we should be open to SS. That said, it is much easier to set up a musical system plugging in valve components, with less tuning effort for room and for the component, as compared to SS systems. A valve set up with Tannoy or devore will take you a long way, and then simple valve components with great horns will take you probably all the way at a much lower expense. It is fine if it does not sound as good as the Yams or Mike's. Only your ego will be hurt.

And if we are asking such general questions, they should be more targeted to the general population, those with normal rooms, reissues, digital streaming, and accessible equipment.

Agree with much of what you say, as usual, there is disagreement in the details. However, I would point out that I was commenting on what I heard at the show and you make a good point that these systems require an extreme effort to bring them around to expectations based on price.

I will say that I gave the O96 speaker a three tries in Munich as I wondered what you hear in it. Normally, I would have written it off after the first go as god but not exceptional...I would much rather have a small LV speaker. After three tries (and some listens to their new mini speaker, which has smaller drivers but the box is not much smaller!) I have to conclude I don't get why you think this speaker is so great. It's fun and not too expensive but not very realistic sounding ultimately (could it be the Audiomat Push/pull tube amp?? Maybe...) in the setup they had in Munich.

I did make the comment as well that there were a number of systems that sounded really good with Hybrids (even Cessaro was using a hybrid...perhaps better than their SET??), so I would agree it is not transistors, per se. I have had good sounding hybrids and single ended hybrids in the past and KR Audio was all transistor until the output stage and I really liked them too.

Zellaton was a big disappointment this year because they used speakers without their original, special drivers that were super fast and coherent (as even the tweeter used the same material). I actually liked their systems in past years with SS amps from Japan (YS or something).

 

[bonzo75]

I never liked the O96 at Munich, nor the zellaton. The zellaton at Munich sounds totally different from the zellaton at audio arts. I never liked the Cessaro except at Tang's, and I heard the big ones only at Tang's outside Munich...and even there I said the universum does a very similar presentation to his minus the bass horn he has added since I was there. In fact the universum due to its size and being a three way is more coherent

 

[morricab]

Why wouldn't the exact same be true for a SS designer that uses many transistors to create a lot of power as opposed to where only 1 or 2 transistor are used in a low power application.

It probably is the case...and the need for negative feedback to make it "linear".

 

[morricab]

I never liked the O96 at Munich, nor the zellaton. The zellaton at Munich sounds totally different from the zellaton at audio arts. I never liked the Cessaro except at Tang's, and I heard the big ones only at Tang's outside Munich...and even there I said the universum does a very similar presentation to his minus the bass horn he has added since I was there. In fact the universum due to its size and being a three way is more coherent

Cessaro was surprisingly good this year. New speakers, new amps and a significantly more coherent and lively sound.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

sameness to me leads me to think of lack of capacity to differentiate between harmonic structures, which IMO is a SETs strength, given the right speaker

 

[bonzo75]

sameness to me leads me to think of lack of capacity to differentiate between harmonic structures, which IMO is a SETs strength, given the right speaker

Partly yes when you are playing complex orchestra, differences in instruments due to different harmonic structures is a SETs strength and easily audible. Also with Lampi as compared to SS dacs I have compared it to

There is another sameness that results on sameness in soundstage, feeling of all concerts being played at the same venue in your room. That can be avoided with good SS or with good valves

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

that cannot possibly be a strength!
all recordings sounds as if performed in the same venue?
I wouldn´t want that

 

[bonzo75]

that cannot possibly be a strength!
all recordings sounds as if performed in the same venue?
I wouldn´t want that

Sorry corrected my post

 

[morricab]

sameness to me leads me to think of lack of capacity to differentiate between harmonic structures, which IMO is a SETs strength, given the right speaker

Exactly one of the main differences I heard in systems in Munich...

 

[thedudeabides]

But Morricab has visited Munich and says all the SS amps don’t deliver, but his brand, that he represents, delivers all the goods. How come I got called out out so vociferously and I have NEVER had negative comments about any brand.

No surprise there. Of course his brand delivers and SS amps are somehow flawed. And how he can make this generalization, under show conditions is, IMHO, incredulous and pretentious.

 

[Rhapsody]

That doesn't mean my opinion is so easily dismissed because you may not like it...

It's not that I don't like it at all, but it's just your opinion. I have no basis to judge your opinion, unless I would have met you, listened with you, worked with you. Only then would I have a sense for your opinion.

With no reference or understanding from where you are coming from other than you are a distributor/dealer your opinion is just that to me. It's your opinion and nothing more than that.

 

[PeterA]

Me too. I really have no idea how the word homogenize and audio reproduction work together.


Especially when you consider the "truth??" of Bobs comment.

It really seems nothing at all in audio is homogenized if a dedinition of homogenize is to not allow, say milk and fat to separate. Extrapolating that to audio would mean some component is noy allowing other inputs to inject their sonic signature which is not the case.

There is really no homogenizing audio as everything impacts everything else.

I think the word homogenize, it does have a place in Audio. I don’t understand it the way Ron is using it, But as I have been doing improvements to my power delivery, the instrumental tone of individual instruments in complex passages is becoming less homogenized. Same with spatial information and separation of instruments. When the sound becomes more clear, as it is in live music in a good hall, it is less homogenized. I’ve taken out accessories from my system which also tended to homogenize the sound.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

to me homogenize is same as restricting harmonic differentiation

 

[PeterA]

to me homogenize is same as restricting harmonic differentiation

this plus other types of information like spatial information of instrument location and scale.

 

[Lagonda]

I want to say something here that has gotten a little bit under my skin…

When I joined with Bob V (Rhapsody) and became the Portland “ Rhapsody Listening Room“ I took a lot of grief about how every comment i might offer was no longer to be trusted because i now had a profit agenda.

But Morricab has visited Munich and says all the SS amps don’t deliver, but his brand, that he represents, delivers all the goods. How come I got called out out so vociferously and I have NEVER had negative comments about any brand.

It's because we have given up on Brad, we all know that SET and preferably the brand he represents is ALWAYS the only way to go ! You on the other hand Bob still have some credibility as being unbiased !

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

we´re all biased, whether we aknowledge it or not

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron is asking . . . if we are emotionally connected to the music, all music, on a particular system, is that itself somehow a form of homogenization.

You have accurately restated that particular question.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I guess it´s more that we´re above a minimum level of accceptance to relax and forget the system?...at least for me it works that way