Here we go again: Alexandria XLF

[audioguy]

Chuck, my guess is that you are dead wrong.

Well tell me how you REALLY feel

Maybe I should have been more careful in my use of "not many". Myles suggested he might sell 1 or 2 pairs per each of his guesstimated 50 dealers. That is 50 to 100 pairs and I would suggest that is "not many". But my point was that he needs to amortize his probably not inconsequential R&D costs over those 50 to 100 pairs and not 500 or 5000. So his R&D expense plays a larger percent role in determining his selling price.

 

[Steve Williams]

well let's just say this about that .......a few hundred pair of these speakers sold produces a very healthy bottom line

Myles analogy is precisely what I meant and with realistic margin as he indicated produces a bottom line that looks fairly darn healthy. Eclipses anything that most of us here would like to see for ourselves

 

[KeithR]

Well tell me how you REALLY feel

Maybe I should have been more careful in my use of "not many". Myles suggested he might sell 1 or 2 pairs per each of his guesstimated 50 dealers. That is 50 to 100 pairs and I would suggest that is "not many". But my point was that he needs to amortize his probably not inconsequential R&D costs over those 50 to 100 pairs and not 500 or 5000. So his R&D expense plays a larger percent role in determining his selling price.

How much is R&D expense these days in audio. This is not a biotech or technology company.

btw, I like, have owned, and very much respect Wilson speakers. at current growth rates however, his top speaker will be 400,000 by 2020. when is enough, enough with this industry?

 

[LL21]

I already know someone who has dropped his X2s2s and ordered a pair of XLFs. He has two duplicate systems, one in each home. And there are multiple other upgrades rumored in the mix at the same time, including $60K of digital equipment being removed and replaced with over $100K of digital equipment. Plus amps, etc...

 

[mauidan]

Signing off until I hear something directly related to the Alexandria XLF.

 

[LL21]

I am told they will arrive in January...if i get a chance to hear them, i will post.

 

[JackD201]

What I noticed on many forums is that the prices are pseudo calculated on a product by product basis. This is a rather myopic view. There are so many more cost centers to be considered.

Capital equipment must be purchased, maintained and updated. The same goes for facilities. If rented, there are leases. If owned, likely mortgages. There is credit management for long and short term borrowings, retained legal services. There are payrolls and benefits for both administrative and production personnel. Then there's advertising and promotion.

In this light variable costs pale. Gary says, and I believe him, to make a small fortune in this industry you have to start with a large one. The X-2s, Arrakis', VR-11s, Sceanas, MM7s, Perfect 8s, Sunrays and Fenice's of this world are halo products the same way AMGs and M cars are. Even Ferrari has GTOs. How many different retail lines does Armani have? When I see people bemoaning the high prices of Halos I wonder what the problem is. If you find the price too steep, it isn't for you. You probably don't have the proper room to put them in anyway. My room is large at almost 80sq/m but I think it's still too small for a VR-11, Arrakis or MM7s to operate optimally albeit an XLF and the others mentioned would do fine. It's as simple as that. The bright side is that for companies that compete at this level, the real war is in the lower models that ARE affordable and accessible. These models would be better fits for the majority of homes they are to be put in and that these models benefit from trickle down technology from their big brothers.

Let those that can afford the flagships pay the bulk of R&D that we, lower in the totem pole, will benefit from. Sounds like a good deal to me.

 

[MylesBAstor]

well let's just say this about that .......a few hundred pair of these speakers sold produces a very healthy bottom line

Myles analogy is precisely what I meant and with realistic margin as he indicated produces a bottom line that looks fairly darn healthy. Eclipses anything that most of us here would like to see for ourselves

Don't have to charge 200K to make a million either

Take the Mod Squad Tiptoes for instance. They sold for around $7 (I think eventually they went up later on) and Steve McCormack once told me that they sold something like a million and a half of them. So even if they made $1/tiptoe (and surely they're margin was larger), they were millionaires

 

[JackD201]

That's the point I was trying to make Myles. The money is in the volume products. The Statement products are there to cast a glow on these.

 

[audioguy]

That's the point I was trying to make Myles. The money is in the volume products. The Statement products are there to cast a glow on these.

Yes and no. If the new speaker is a 40 point margin product (very typical for speakers if not higher) , then Wilson gross profit is about $120,000 per pair, or $4,800,000 to $9,600,000 for the 50 to 100 pairs in our guesstimate. I'm pretty comfortable that will cover all his R&D and whatever other costs he has in this product to leave enough money for at least a new washer and dryer (or Mercedes or ......). All of these numbers are still very nice even if he "only" grosses $80,000 per pair.

And oh by the way, he will be able to use whatever he had learned from this development in his next suite of more "affordable" products.

That is why I have so much respect for his company. Smart business man.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Yes and no. If the new speaker is a 40 point margin product (very typical for speakers if not higher) , then Wilson gross profit is about $120,000 per pair, or $4,800,000 to $9,600,000 for the 50 to 100 pairs in our guesstimate. I'm pretty comfortable that will cover all his R&D and whatever other costs he has in this product to leave enough money for at least a new washer and dryer (or Mercedes or ......). All of these numbers are still very nice even if he "only" grosses $80,000 per pair.



And oh by the way, he will be able to use whatever he had learned from this development in his next suite of more "affordable" products.

That is why I have so much respect for his company. Smart business man.

You're forgetting the dealer. So if it's 200k, and assume factor of four markup, then the dealer is say paying 100k and Dave is making 50,000. Now those figures can shift somewhat but the dealer who's doing the install and set up is also doing very well.

 

[KeithR]

That is why I have so much respect for his company. Smart business man.

Indeed he is. getting guys to shell out another 40k every few years is also tough to do. clearly the upgrade is worth it to those folks.

 

[JackD201]

You're forgetting the dealer. So if it's 200k, and assume factor of four markup, then the dealer is say paying 100k and Dave is making 50,000. Now those figures can shift somewhat but the dealer who's doing the install and set up is also doing very well.

Where I'm from, the government makes way more money than us dealers (duties, value added tax, percentage of our net income). So don't forget that too! Freight for behemoths are no joke either, even by sea.

 

[microstrip]

TAS was the first to get a preview again! It seems Jacob Heilbrunn has been traveling a lot lately.

You can read about the XLF at the avguide site:

http://www.avguide.com/blog/wilson-s-new-xlf-flagship-loudspeaker-world-exclusive-preview

 

[rbbert]

I think this was Robert Harley?

 

[LL21]

TAS was the first to get a preview again! It seems Jacob Heilbrunn has been traveling a lot lately.

You can read about the XLF at the avguide site:

http://www.avguide.com/blog/wilson-s-new-xlf-flagship-loudspeaker-world-exclusive-preview

Thanks Micro...so not at all what i was expecting. The fact that 6 out of 6 owners of Wilson X1/Grand Slamms or Alexandrias i know all use subs...is not the point of the XLF if the article is to be believed. It is a 'nuanced' overall improvement over the X2...particularly being 'lighter on its feet' in the uppers and mids and with better spacial resolution and definition.

So much for XLF extreme bass and being able to get rid of the Thors...it seems at the end of the artile that it was the combination of XLF PLUA the Thors that was the spectaular sound. Oh well.

 

[RBFC]

As has been mentioned in the past, attempting to get superior low frequency performance from an all-in-one speaker design is difficult due to placement limitations. Having separate subs allows the flexibility of near-optimal positioning in the listening room. It doesn't matter how low the XLF will go, if its room placement negates that advantage.

Lee

 

[Gregadd]

Don't have to charge 200K to make a million either

Take the Mod Squad Tiptoes for instance. They sold for around $7 (I think eventually they went up later on) and Steve McCormack once told me that they sold something like a million and a half of them. So even if they made $1/tiptoe (and surely they're margin was larger), they were millionaires

Yeah Myles, but Tip Toes dominated the market then. I recall my dealer gave me the Tip Toes for free. Could the Mod Squad repeat their effort today. No offense to Dave but there are a lot of damn good speakers for less than $200k. His own Alexandria included.

 

[LL21]

As has been mentioned in the past, attempting to get superior low frequency performance from an all-in-one speaker design is difficult due to placement limitations. Having separate subs allows the flexibility of near-optimal positioning in the listening room. It doesn't matter how low the XLF will go, if its room placement negates that advantage.

Lee

Thanks, Lee. That makes sense (and i say that based on my own experience with X1/Grand Slamms...and a Velodyne DD18 which has made all the difference). In fact, every owner of X1s or X2s i know (about 6 of them) each uses: JL Gothams, big Velodynes or the Wilson Thor. All of them.

 

[Ron Party]

And there are even better subs than those, Lloyd.

Lee nailed it in his last post. It just doesn't matter how good the bass performance of the XLFs is. Superior bass performance will be obtained through the use of at least 2 subs and ideally 4.