Here we go again: Alexandria XLF

[FrantzM]

Frank,

My main point was only about industrial quality, as it directly applied to Wilson Audio, nothing else. When you pick-up Japan, you are just making my point. Japan was the first Asian industrialized nation, has a long tradition of science and technology, and quality is part of their culture - IMHO you can not compare the quality of their industrial manpower with the current chinese one. But surely things will change in future. As an example, the quality of Chinese tubes was terrible twenty years ago and current ones are quite reliable.

YOU CALL ME FRANK !!!

Seriously, No, I am not making your point.China has been there and has done that .. They have a tradition of excellence .. It is not one they will have to dig to find .. It is in their ways of doing things as well thus my mention of their porcelain and art works ... They are currently able to produce serious hardware of the highest quality ... They already have. As for he notion of Intellectual property theft it is a new spin of something old as civilization .. A good portion of many countries treasure can be found in other countries museums or economies .. I am not defending it simply pointing out that Western Civilizations have been guilty of the same ...

 

[fas42]

YOU CALL ME FRANK !!!

Of course, you realise that was a great compliment ... :b:b

Frank

 

[JackD201]

I've called Francisco, Fernando and Ferdinand. Looks like he's returning the favor to Frantz and Frank. Just don't call me Fack. This is a family oriented forum!

 

[FrantzM]

I've called Francisco, Fernando and Ferdinand. Looks like he's returning the favor to Frantz and Frank. Just don't call me Fack. This is a family oriented forum!

 

[KeithR]

Once again you seek to downplay one of the core values of Wilson Audio.

I'm happy to support a made in the U.S. product, that places a high value on its workers.

I think speculation on Wilson's cost structure is just that, all speculation.

Let's face it---200k for a speaker is beyond paying people a decent wage. It's a speaker people. And let's also remember how Dave had to cut prices on the Wilson W/P 8 to compete with Magico ultimately. Had nothing to do with cost structure.

I support USA products as well---and am proud to own Zu, Sophia Electric (coming), and Berkeley products. I have no problem as well paying more to buy USA---and chose Sophias over Audions (UK).

 

[mep]

Keith-Run the numbers backwards on Dave's $200K speaker. I assume he is selling this speaker to the dealer for $100K. Now add up all of the material that goes into making these speakers. Add up all of the machining time, the cost of the drivers, the cost of the enclosure material, the cost of the crossover network components, the cost of the paint, the cost of all the assembly labor, the cost of the shipping crates to manufacture, his overhead costs, etc. How much profit do you really think he is making on these?

Are we debating that no one should build a speaker that costs $200K or are we debating that the price is grossly over-inflated and can't be justified by the cost of bringing it to market??

 

[LL21]

Are we debating that no one should build a speaker that costs $200K or are we debating that the price is grossly over-inflated and can't be justified by the cost of bringing it to market??

Speaking for myself, i am simply stating that the jury is out as to whether the XLF is a material improvement over the X2 Series 2, whereby (relative to $160K for X2s2) it is truly $200K worth of speaker. If it does, great! More second-hand X2s2's coming to the market, therefore more Maxx's, etc, etc.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Will lkely bow out of this thread he is gettin too far away. Let this be considered my parting shot. I am a business person. I respect profoundly the spirit of entrepreneurship and I have experienced first hand what it takes to conduct a business with continuous success. On that alone Dave Wilson must be lauded. it is not easy making of an hobby a livelihood and making of it a success which is what Dave Wilson has done. Kudos.
Now about the cost of any speakers. I have not built a full range speaker ever (did try some subs and actually built a friend an Infinite Baffle sub). I have been able to have a look at the price of drivers and material in speaker building: The cost of material in most speakers is lower than many would think , there are out there several speakers costing tens of thousands of dollars that do not cost $1000 in material, crossovers and cabinet included. Often people talk about CNC lathe as being the end of it all or an extraordinary and unusual piece of equipment.. Not so CNC cabinet included. CNC is often touted in speaker building as a costly affair, it can be but doesn't have to be and besodes CNC milling cost have been falling for decades, I wish I could say the same about High End speaker prices. So speaker building in one or two units may be not cheap but not as expensive as what one would infer and even the smallest speaker manufacturer will know how to source its parts in a way that doesn't explode the bottom line ... Yet a speaker is not the sum of its material (cabinet included) it is more. It is research, lot of it it is understanding of human perception, it is experience and that has a cost. Yet there is such a thing as marketing and we audiophiles are almost a dream market .. This thread being an example of the devotion we have for a company...
I will however continue to object to what I see as some naivete from many audiophiles , myself included. I don't think any manufacturer gets into the fireld of producing speakers for the good of Hi-Fi. No they are entrepreneurs, enthusiasts who see a market and go for it and use the tools of marketing to reach success, nothing wrong. but don't think too long that it cost them so much to make their speakers that they barely make a profit... If they were to do that they will not reach success. The one that reach susccess are good business-persons... Not naive and hear-in-hand enthusiasts.
Now about supporting USA made products. A choice like may others.. Keeping in mind that more often than not these products are made of parts sourced form all over the world .. As it should be. Globalization is not an empty concept it is part of human evolution. We also need other people to buy American as we are buying things from other places ...

Signing off until I hear something directly related to the Alexandria XLF.

 

[mep]

Speaking for myself, i am simply stating that the jury is out as to whether the XLF is a material improvement over the X2 Series 2, whereby (relative to $160K for X2s2) it is truly $200K worth of speaker. If it does, great! More second-hand X2s2's coming to the market, therefore more Maxx's, etc, etc.

You are bringing up a third option and I'm not sure if there is a good answer or a *right* answer. Let's say the new speaker is clearly better than the X2s2. How would you quantify whether or not it was $40K better? I don't think you can because there is no sonic goodness to dollar calculator or conversion chart that I'm aware of. I suppose that if you can afford to shell out $160K for a speaker, you might think spending another $40K was worth it to buy one that is better than the one you paid $160K. It's all relative I suppose.

 

[LL21]

You are bringing up a third option and I'm not sure if there is a good answer or a *right* answer. Let's say the new speaker is clearly better than the X2s2. How would you quantify whether or not it was $40K better? I don't think you can because there is no sonic goodness to dollar calculator or conversion chart that I'm aware of. I suppose that if you can afford to shell out $160K for a speaker, you might think spending another $40K was worth it to buy one that is better than the one you paid $160K. It's all relative I suppose.

Hi MEP. I think your point is a fair one...the trouble is we all must make these decisions on ANYTHING we buy. Do I buy the SE edition or not? Is CD Transport X that much better than Y for 20% more? In the end, we MUST ultimately make these decisions anytime we buy. How each of us does, is probably quite personal.

In this particular case, though, i would look for 2 things which can (sort of) be quantified:

1. If it is an XLF (ie better bass), then what would happen if i bought 2 Gothams (30K) plus cables? If the XLF was the equal of buying 2 Gothams plus cables (excluding the setup issues), then that might help justify the price.

2. More subjectively, are the rest of the improvement (ie, silk tweeter, etc) qualitatively better than X2s2? Enough that i would be willing to ascribe some portion of the $40K to it? Some might...others might not care.

 

[mep]

Again-I don't think there is a *right* answer to your question. Whether or not you spend the extra money to move up in any product line depends on your finances. I'm not in the market for $50K speakers, let alone $160K or $200K. I'm thinking that if I could afford to buy $160K speakers, I could probably afford to buy $200K speakers. I don't know where rich people draw the line on expensive purchases. If you don't bat an eye at $160K, I don't seem them flitting at $200K.

 

[LL21]

Again-I don't think there is a *right* answer to your question. Whether or not you spend the extra money to move up in any product line depends on your finances. I'm not in the market for $50K speakers, let alone $160K or $200K. I'm thinking that if I could afford to buy $160K speakers, I could probably afford to buy $200K speakers. I don't know where rich people draw the line on expensive purchases. If you don't bat an eye at $160K, I don't seem them flitting at $200K.

To be fair, if one is in the market for a $4K speaker, looking at a $5K speaker is not an enormous stretch. The % difference between $160K and $200K is the same, and for the guy who is looking at $160K the $200K mark is probably a similar distance.

 

[Steve Williams]

To be fair, if one is in the market for a $4K speaker, looking at a $5K speaker is not an enormous stretch. The % difference between $160K and $200K is the same, and for the guy who is looking at $160K the $200K mark is probably a similar distance.

Very interesting comparison.

 

[KeithR]

Keith-Run the numbers backwards on Dave's $200K speaker. I assume he is selling this speaker to the dealer for $100K. Now add up all of the material that goes into making these speakers. Add up all of the machining time, the cost of the drivers, the cost of the enclosure material, the cost of the crossover network components, the cost of the paint, the cost of all the assembly labor, the cost of the shipping crates to manufacture, his overhead costs, etc. How much profit do you really think he is making on these?

Are we debating that no one should build a speaker that costs $200K or are we debating that the price is grossly over-inflated and can't be justified by the cost of bringing it to market??

I believe 5:1 is the price:cost formula. Someone else probably has a more precise idea. But that gives you a starting point. My guess that it's much higher for SOTA products.

My contention is price has little to do with increased cost. Guys- xovers, drivers and stuff just don't cost that much. Therefore it's all about the cabinet--and let's be serious, this cabinet is just an altered existing wilson cabinet. Most of these high end guys are all competing to be at the same price level---so once one moves, they all do. Focal had a 200k speaker released last year, coincidently now Wilson has one.

Although Magico seems to be an outlier on price and the Q7 says that again---although even that speaker is double the previous effort.

But in general, I can get a GTR with a hand-built engine for 90k. I can get a similarly made F-car for 200k. It's all perspective imo. I personally don't believe in 200k speakers---but to each their own. To me, speaker technology has not moved that much to demand such prices. But again, YMMV.

 

[mep]

I believe 5:1 is the price:cost formula. Someone else probably has a more precise idea. But that gives you a starting point. My guess that it's much higher for SOTA products.

My contention is price has little to do with increased cost. Guys- xovers, drivers and stuff just don't cost that much. Therefore it's all about the cabinet--and let's be serious, this cabinet is just an altered existing wilson cabinet. Most of these high end guys are all competing to be at the same price level---so once one moves, they all do. Focal had a 200k speaker released last year, coincidently now Wilson has one.

Although Magico seems to be an outlier on price and the Q7 says that again---although even that speaker is double the previous effort.

But in general, I can get a GTR with a hand-built engine for 90k. I can get a similarly made F-car for 200k. It's all perspective imo. I personally don't believe in 200k speakers---but to each their own. To me, speaker technology has not moved that much to demand such prices. But again, YMMV.

So I think you are basically coming down on the line of no speaker is worth $200K. We can debate that, but the bottom line is that if there are people willing to pay $200K for the best speaker Wilson knows how to build, then apparently they are worth $200K because the market place says it is so.

$200K is a very nice house in many states in the U.S. (that's a dog house in CA though) and I know it takes far more labor and materials to build a $200K house than it does to build a $200K speaker. I wonder how much money you have to make in order to be able to afford a $200K speaker? My guess is close to a 7 figure salary.

 

[microstrip]

I was listening to MAXX3 a few minutes ago. No way they sounded as good as the Alexandria's I listened some time ago, although my ancillaries are similar but better. Could some kind WBF member tell me how should I make the MAXX's sound better than the X2 spending just USD 10k ? Please do not refer to room treatments, unless you believe that a room treatment costing usd 20k is really much better than a 10k one (an interesting subject for a new thread )

 

[audioguy]

I think there are three issues at work here and why he charges $200K for this speaker:

(a) Many businesses fail because they don't know how to amortize the development cost over the number products that will be sold using that development. I have no clue how many of these speakers Wilson will sell but my guess is not many. Hence, some portion of his price includes whatever it cost to develop these monsters

(b) Traditional cost of materials, labor, etc must be included

(c) Because he can. Wilson has been at this a really long time and he has yet to build a speaker at whatever price that folks are not willing to purchase. And my guess is, if he continue to work in the speaker business, at some point in the future, he will build one that costs even more. My sense is that if you (a) and (b) together, you still don't get a price $200,000. More power to David Wilson. "Build it and they will come". That saying must surely be posted in his office someplace !!!

 

[DaveyF]

In the thread about the Genesis G2jr, Gary Koh states:"Unfortunately, no G1.2 or G2jr in Florida, or any where nearby. All the large speakers in the past 4 years (except for a single pair) have gone overseas."

I suspect that DW also expects his market place for the XLF's to be "overseas".

Interestingly, today I was discussing the price of a mid level Maserati with a very well heeled friend, who had asked me which car I thought he should consider, the Maserati or a Ferrari Italia....he liked the Ferrari better but his wife didn't. I told him that I couldn't advise him in this matter, wherein he came out with..." what the heck, I'll buy both"--- Must be nice huh! BTW, are we still in a recession I should tell him about the XLF's, he would probably order one pair for himself and one for his wife

 

[Steve Williams]

I have no clue how many of these speakers Wilson will sell but my guess is not many.

Chuck, my guess is that you are dead wrong.

I suspect that DW also expects his market place for the XLF's to be "overseas"

that's where the money is

 

[MylesBAstor]

I think there are three issues at work here and why he charges $200K for this speaker:

(a) Many businesses fail because they don't know how to amortize the development cost over the number products that will be sold using that development. I have no clue how many of these speakers Wilson will sell but my guess is not many. Hence, some portion of his price includes whatever it cost to develop these monsters

(b) Traditional cost of materials, labor, etc must be included

(c) Because he can. Wilson has been at this a really long time and he has yet to build a speaker at whatever price that folks are not willing to purchase. And my guess is, if he continue to work in the speaker business, at some point in the future, he will build one that costs even more. My sense is that if you (a) and (b) together, you still don't get a price $200,000. More power to David Wilson. "Build it and they will come". That saying must surely be posted in his office someplace !!!

First, we assume that the market is limited to audiophiles buying these speakers; not necesarily true.

Next, at one or two speakers sold per dealer, given the number of worldwide Wilson dealers, adds up quickly. So let's say 50 dealers x 1 speaker x $50,000 (roughly) clearing = 2,500,000. Hardly a pittance

Rinally, how many AXLFs can Wilson actually produce per year, given probably how labor intensive the AXLF is to build?