Zero Distortion: Tango Time

bonzo75

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Very nice. I can feel the ambience down my iPhone lol. Is this the DST through the juicy SUT or direct EMT? Have you got this recorded (or please may you) for MS direct to EMT?

I need to learn like you to say good things first before asking. To be fair, I did edit out the foul language
 
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Dvuc

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Tango, how would you compare original Neumann DST with Neumann clone done by guy from Germany?
 

ddk

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The Neumann DST

View attachment 92479

I have two Neumann DST #1201 and #1213. Both came from a Japanese collector who passed away last year. The Neumann has a star connector like older EMT cartridges. I had to send 2 of my 3012Rs to ddk to change connector for me. This white Neumann is one of the two best cartridges I have heard. The other one being Westrek 10A that is the rarest item of all. Tima and PeterA have heard the white Neumann played impressively at ddk's. It is the cartridge that once heard makes you rethink about the sound you have been claiming natural from your system. In some degree it is like going to an audio show, sometime we find a room demoing a system against a real life musician playing. You detect that differences. But in this case I am talking comparing carts. The DST exhibits the most un-homogeneous sound one could hear from any carts. It is 1) the tone 2) the resolution 3) the timing that this cart imo excel beyond others. Its tone is complete from bottom to top. Not emphasizing any particular frequency spectrum. And it comes with a staggering clarity. If you think that this cart made around 1958 would have a sound like other old spu you would be totally mistaken. The sound is perfect full range. Tima described how great it is in the high in another thread. Actually for me my heart goes to the bass and mid are so naturally believable. Anyone hearing it would second the perception of bass and midrange he has been having. The timing, the tiny shift in musical movement is so superb making you draw into the performance unknowingly. I think my MS5R is king in this department but the DST also comes with "the tone" so the level of emotional connection goes to another territory. In term of dynamic. It is a lively cart. I believe it is as lively as the music was recorded not more. My MS5R could be even more lively and dynamic actually. But this cart as I said before make me second thought if the vdh is too, fast, lively and dynamic. (Many readers probably wonder if there is such thing as too dynamic too lively too fast.) I will take the rap. Second thought because it sounds believably real. On some part of Shaffran's Arpeggione the stroke of his bow in the vdh attack me at the chest making great excitement. I don't get this same level of attack with the DST but the sound of his cello and the piano is so real. Plus the rhythm, the shift/change in pace and weight of piano keys being pressed, bow being stroked are transmitted to my brain to cause me thinking this is more real. The piano...just more believable don't know how to describe. Need Tima to do this. Strangely when I am about to think the vdh is more exciting. I played different piece of music. For example Mehta's Mahler 3. Since the first note of play the Neumann widen my eyes and then "stunned" me with the attack of dense high textured bass from brass instruments and tympani like I have never experienced before. I felt like I was on some front rows in front of the orchestra where it was recorded. The scale was way beyond the width of my room. Those energy pouring into me with glop of sound wave. Itold my friend Kedar once quite a few months back after I changed speaker wires that I was hearing the best ever Mahler3. But this is even beyond that with different kind of presentation. But with the kind of excitement and suspension of disbelief that could make Tima the Mahler expert fall off David's sofa. I am not kidding. He should go back to David's and try that particular Mahler. See if I exaggerated. What I am saying is the DST has it all and beyond. You have to play it with many music many different records to realize how special how extraordinary how beyond this cart is. There goes my humbleness. I should just stop, keep my composure and act cool. :cool:
The Neumann has an additional dimension that no other cartridge I’ve heard has and it’s something that people who haven’t experienced the DST in a top end system would be know that it’s even possible in reproduction. It’s ”Mass”!

With the DST the instruments have a tangible presence, they have real volume and “Mass” specific to each instrument right in the soundstage. This is unique to the DST and once you hear it you know how real and “natural” analog LPs can sound. I love the vdH and it’s probably the best cartridge one can own today but like everything else it lacks “Mass”.

I have not recommended an album in a while. Here is Carmen McRae The Great American Song Book. It is a double disc live album. Great sound. Great Live performance in a very friendly atmosphere. Atlantic label. You dont need to like jazz to like this album. It is just very enjoyable. So alive.

View attachment 92525
I LOVE HER! Got many of her albums!

david
 
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Tango

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Tango, how would you compare original Neumann DST with Neumann clone done by guy from Germany?
I have never had the Neumann DST15 ( the name of the clone) in my system. I heard them in a system at a vintage workshop in Bangkok in the same system that had both original DST and DST62. The DST15 sounded like a really good modern cart to me. It was very open and lively impressed me with detail "on the platter." Many people tend to think the easier you hear detail the more obvious detail on the platter is given the more favorable. The original Neumann dont do that. Info is all there but not giving to listener like it injects bat ear syrum to you. In real life sometime you have to give attention to hear more specific. The kind of resolution is different. The original has natural resolution that PeterA spent a lot of time talking about and annoyed people in the process. In a way it is like 300B made these days vs. 1950's and before.

Remark: Pls ignor the word "vintage" "modern". I wrote the above not intending to imply vintage vs modern. I should just stated only the model. It is difficult these days to write without some regulars getting agitate. I dont really care if a product is vintage. I care that it sounds good. But if it happens to be old and vintage, I just naturally call it vintage for the purpose of indicating its time of production. I like a lot VDH and Opus1 too and not because it is modern or vintage.
 
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Dvuc

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Apr 28, 2013
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I have never had the Neumann DST15 ( the name of the clone) in my system. I heard them in a system at a vintage workshop in Bangkok in the same system that had both original DST and DST62. The DST15 sounded like a really good modern cart to me. It was very open and lively impressed me with detail "on the platter." Many people tend to think the easier you hear detail the more obvious detail on the platter is given the more favorable. The original Neumann dont do that. Info is all there but not giving to listener like it injects bat ear syrum to you. In real life sometime you have to give attention to hear more specific. The kind of resolution is different. The original has natural resolution that PeterA spent a lot of time talking about and annoyed people in the process. In a way it is like 300B made these days vs. 1950's and before.

Remark: Pls ignor the word "vintage" "modern". I wrote the above not intending to imply vintage vs modern. I should just stated only the model. It is difficult these days to write without some regulars getting agitate. I dont really care if a product is vintage. I care that it sounds good. But if it happens to be old and vintage, I just naturally call it vintage for the purpose of indicating its time of production. I like a lot VDH and Opus1 too and not because it is modern or vintage.
Excellent answer! Thank you!
 

bonzo75

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Excellent answer! Thank you!

Try the Analogtechnik DMT25. I haven't heard it but passing on recommendation from one guy who owns both the original DST and this one and likes both equally. He likes DaVa as well though he prefers the DST slightly more.
 

Solypsa

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www.solypsa.com
Can a DST62 be rebuilt ( new stylus at least ) or is it 'enjoy the ride while it lasts'?
 

ddk

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Can a DST62 be rebuilt ( new stylus at least ) or is it 'enjoy the ride while it lasts'?
Theoretically everything can be rebuilt but it comes down to by whom and how different/good/bad the job is. I’ve experienced a few of the Neumann tributes a couple were nice cartridges in their own right but none of them had anything to do with either Neumann cartridge. The only one I had several of was the Lumiere, the first 1 was beautiful but broke down soon after, they other 6 were horrible And I never got them back after I sent the lot to the builder to fix. I learnt a valuable lesson then when it comes to dealing with fly by night operators.

david
 

Dvuc

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Apr 28, 2013
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Try the Analogtechnik DMT25. I haven't heard it but passing on recommendation from one guy who owns both the original DST and this one and likes both equally. He likes DaVa as well though he prefers the DST slightly more.
Thx - my friend has both DST15 and DMT25 and said that 25 is by far the best mono he has ever heard. He will soon adjust his tonearm to play DMT25 stereo correctly so I might visit him next month.
 

bazelio

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I hate to break up the far more interesting Neumann convo, but it's been idle for a day.

Following Tang's lead then, these interconnects are now inserted in my second system, between an EAR 88pb and Vitus SS-010 Mk2.

Early impressions. The sound has a touch of sweetness versus my reference interconnects. It's slightly softer. Micro dynamics seem a bit restrained. Treble perhaps not quite as extended. In all cases, these are matters of degree rather than major steps. Imaging is really where I'm going to need to give these some time to settle and see what changes, if anything. So I'll hold back comment there for now. These are literally right out of the package. And overall, right from time zero, I can say $34 buys some very musical sound.
 

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Tango

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I hate to break up the far more interesting Neumann convo, but it's been idle for a day.

Following Tang's lead then, these interconnects are now inserted in my second system, between an EAR 88pb and Vitus SS-010 Mk2.

Early impressions. The sound has a touch of sweetness versus my reference interconnects. It's slightly softer. Micro dynamics seem a bit restrained. Treble perhaps not quite as extended. In all cases, these are matters of degree rather than major steps. Imaging is really where I'm going to need to give these some time to settle and see what changes, if anything. So I'll hold back comment there for now. These are literally right out of the package. And overall, right from time zero, I can say $34 buys some very musical sound.
Geez Brian. You are making me worry losing face recommending something shitty. :D Maybe wait a week for improvement.

Kind regards,
Tang
 
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bazelio

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Geez Brian. You are making me worry losing face recommending something shitty. :D Maybe wait a week for improvement.

Kind regards,
Tang
It's not shitty :D. Whether or not I keep it in the system does not matter to me anyhow. I like to try these things, Tang. From time to time.

I also found old Belden 8402 interconnects in my drawer that I'll compare next. Did you try these yet?
 

Boli46

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I hate to break up the far more interesting Neumann convo, but it's been idle for a day.

Following Tang's lead then, these interconnects are now inserted in my second system, between an EAR 88pb and Vitus SS-010 Mk2.

Early impressions. The sound has a touch of sweetness versus my reference interconnects. It's slightly softer. Micro dynamics seem a bit restrained. Treble perhaps not quite as extended. In all cases, these are matters of degree rather than major steps. Imaging is really where I'm going to need to give these some time to settle and see what changes, if anything. So I'll hold back comment there for now. These are literally right out of the package. And overall, right from time zero, I can say $34 buys some very musical sound.
The Gotham GAC-4/1 is a very good cable, but if we don’t know exactly HOW you use it your impressions are meaningless. Do you use it single ended, balanced or star quad? If you use XLR connectors does your pre and power amp have properly balanced output/input? Many commercial amps have XLR connectors, but there is no guarantee that they are properly balanced. They may be single ended, pseudo balanced or balanced with the very common pin one problem. If you do it right there is not a lot of difference between good quality cables, if you do it wrong you can spend a lifetime and and a lot of money gettting nowhere.
I hate to break up the far more interesting Neumann convo, but it's been idle for a day.

Following Tang's lead then, these interconnects are now inserted in my second system, between an EAR 88pb and Vitus SS-010 Mk2.

Early impressions. The sound has a touch of sweetness versus my reference interconnects. It's slightly softer. Micro dynamics seem a bit restrained. Treble perhaps not quite as extended. In all cases, these are matters of degree rather than major steps. Imaging is really where I'm going to need to give these some time to settle and see what changes, if anything. So I'll hold back comment there for now. These are literally right out of the package. And overall, right from time zero, I can say $34 buys some very musical sound.
 

bazelio

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Previously in the thread we discussed that it's RCA, so single ended. The 4 conductors are connected two to the tip, two to the sleeve with the shield floating at the distal end. I was questioning why 4/1 for unbalanced RCA when GAC-1 is the same wire in a co-axial configuration, but Tang prefers it. I have tried many different pro audio wires on unbalanced interfaces over the years, and will continue to do so. I've gotten somewhere. :p
 

Boli46

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Previously in the thread we discussed that it's RCA, so single ended. The 4 conductors are connected two to the tip, two to the sleeve with the shield floating at the distal end. I was questioning why 4/1 for unbalanced RCA when GAC-1 is the same wire in a co-axial configuration, but Tang prefers it. I have tried many different pro audio wires on unbalanced interfaces over the years, and will continue to do so. I've gotten somewhere. :p
Single ended is distinctly sub optimal. If you want the best you have to go balanced.
 

Boli46

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As OP, I request no one to reply to this on this thread. You can reply on any other suitable one
I find this hostility to my posts very surprising and very peculiar. I post now and then on a number of different audio forums, but I have never had such a negative reaction before. The superiority of balanced connections is well established in the professional arena and well known to audiophiles who know what they are doing. I would like to refer you to the writings of Ralph Morrison, Neil Muncy, Bill Whitlock, Bruno Putseys, Steve Macatee and Ralph Karsten on this subject. I can only attribute this reaction to a lack of knowledge and an unwillingness to abandon preconcieved ideas.
 

treitz3

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For anybody interested in the best possible sound out of their stereo system Bazelios advice should be disregarded. Balanced is where it is at, anything else is very much inferior.
Hello and welcome to the WBF Boli46. Please allow me to remind you of the TOS of this forum. They can be found here - https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/terms-of-service.1207/

You have specifically violated TOS with this post.

9. Where possible, please avoid generalizations which create heated arguments. Please don’t say “all amps sound the same” but rather, “all the amps I have heard sound the same to me.” Following this rule not only makes for a calmer atmosphere, but also saves you hours and days of aggravation while you try to defend your point of view!

Additionally,

6. Please do not attempt to moderate the forum on your own. If you see objectionable posts, please report them. We will deal with them. Above all, focus on the topic being discussed, rather than the person discussing it.

2. Cordial participation is a key requisite of being a member in our forum. If in our opinion you are violating this rule, administrative action may be taken which may include termination of your membership and deletion of your posts with or without notice.

____________________________________________________________

While we do welcome new members with open arms and encourage a healthy (and cordial) debate, changing a topic with a statement stated as an absolute fact is not a good way to introduce yourself to a forum. Please consider this a formal warning. Please feel free to start another thread, so that this thread is not derailed any further.

Now, let's get back to the topic we were previously discussing. Thank you.

Tom
 

Boli46

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Hello and welcome to the WBF Boli46. Please allow me to remind you of the TOS of this forum. They can be found here - https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/terms-of-service.1207/

You have specifically violated TOS with this post.

9. Where possible, please avoid generalizations which create heated arguments. Please don’t say “all amps sound the same” but rather, “all the amps I have heard sound the same to me.” Following this rule not only makes for a calmer atmosphere, but also saves you hours and days of aggravation while you try to defend your point of view!

Additionally,

6. Please do not attempt to moderate the forum on your own. If you see objectionable posts, please report them. We will deal with them. Above all, focus on the topic being discussed, rather than the person discussing it.

2. Cordial participation is a key requisite of being a member in our forum. If in our opinion you are violating this rule, administrative action may be taken which may include termination of your membership and deletion of your posts with or without notice.

____________________________________________________________

While we do welcome new members with open arms and encourage a healthy (and cordial) debate, changing a topic with a statement stated as an absolute fact is not a good way to introduce yourself to a forum. Please consider this a formal warning. Please feel free to start another thread, so that this thread is not derailed any further.

Now, let's get back to the topic we were previously discussing. Thank you.

Tom
Hmm, Interesting. I have never had a contretemps with a moderator before on any of the forums that I have participated on over many years. My mistake was that I didn’t realise that this forum is such a ”Princess on a Pea” place. As for the violation of # 9 of the TOS I can only say that it is not a generalization, it is the god given truth and I provided half a dozen referenses to prove it. Well, I’ll leave you now to your own affairs in this stagnant pond of a forum. I won’t be back. Over and out.
 

Ron Resnick

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Hmm, Interesting. I have never had a contretemps with a moderator before on any of the forums that I have participated on over many years. My mistake was that I didn’t realise that this forum is such a ”Princess on a Pea” place. As for the violation of # 9 of the TOS I can only say that it is not a generalization, it is the god given truth and I provided half a dozen referenses to prove it. Well, I’ll leave you now to your own affairs in this stagnant pond of a forum. I won’t be back. Over and out.

Dear Boli46,

I think you are correct that WBF is not the right forum for you. Here we attempt to learn, listen, audition, conclude, discuss, persuade and listen some more and discuss some more.

The guiding philosophy of this forum is that high-end audio is a subjective hobby. We discourage absolutist statements of objectively correct and objectively wrong. Given that audiophiles hear differently and have different sonic preferences, different budgets, different space constraints, different margin dollar utility values, different convenience desires, different objectives for the hobby and different diminishing return values, among many other variables, it is rare to find in this hobby an indisputably and objectively correct answer of general applicability.

I readily stipulate that properly designed balanced cables connecting properly designed circuits achieve commode mode rejection. But that is an answer to a very different question than: "Which sounds better to me in my particular system according to my particular subjective sonic preferences?"

An objectivist audio forum such as Audio Science Review will be happy to embrace your certitude and Godly righteousness.
 

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