Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[microstrip]

Maybe it'd devolve into a discussion around cable measurements vs audible differences. Been there, done that, though. I'm thinking higher level. I tend to go along with the notion that audiophile cables introduce (sometimes) pleasing colorations for which people are willing to pay.

Surely. Everything adds colorations. Why do you think people love tubes? Because they are magic? Different cables add more or less pleasing colorations, according to systems and owner preferences.

The colorations are perceived as "performance" - and we can argue whether or not that's an accurate descriptor, what it means in an absolute sense in reference to cables or try to define what it should mean.

Forget. In stereo there is no absolute reference. A cable can't be considered or debated without a system.

But I don't buy into the notion that the $40 cable restricts the signal or introduces distortions. At least that's not intuitive nor supported by any data that I've seen. Distortion is measurable.

All cables introduce distortions and noise. Cable distortion and noise are not well understood and have not been measured with success. The question is that $40 cables do not do what $40k cables do. You are really a lucky person if you prefer the $40 cable. If you are able to do the same for sources, amplifiers and speakers you are a very lucky person!

Cables are like electronics. Surely cable colorations are different from electronics colorations - it would be great to have an electronic box that could mimic Nordost Odin Gold! People do not know really why they prefer their Lamm's or DartZeels in terms of measurements or technicalities and are happy with that.

When I want to listen to a "reference" (not preferred) sound I use "my reference" - a Quad 606 mk2 driven by the Studer A80 or the Vivaldi DAC with the Mogami's that are closer to the system (I have a few pairs and they sound different ...).

That said, I did once read that certain Belden cables (e.g. the vintage twisty 9497 Belden speaker wire) exhibit electrical resonance. People say it sounds good, but apparently it's just adding harmonics. I've never seen that substantiated.

 

[bonzo75]

Guys please, as OP, I don't want to rehash this cables vs tubes what adds colorations here. There is nothing new to gain from it.

Please take it to another thread. If Tang posts a cable video or his experience, let's take his value or comment what we hear on that video, or if anyone has used that particular cable they can comment on their experience.

generic philosophy on cables and tubes and colors - one day I will get conduct an exam and quickest one to answer all 50 gets the cable Tang disposes. I expect everyone to answer correctly so the quickest wins.

 

[Tango]

When I want to listen to a "reference" (not preferred) sound I use "my reference" - a Quad 606 mk2 driven by the Studer A80 or the Vivaldi DAC with the Mogami's that are closer to the system (I have a few pairs and they sound different ...).

Dear Micro. It would be more value adding if you could tell us what model of Mogami you use in your "reference." And why you prefer this model to the others ( which model also?).

 

[bazelio]

Surely. Everything adds colorations. Why do you think people love tubes? Because they are magic? Different cables add more or less pleasing colorations, according to systems and owner preferences.


Forget. In stereo there is no absolute reference. A cable can't be considered or debated without a system.


All cables introduce distortions and noise. Cable distortion and noise are not well understood and have not been measured with success. The question is that $40 cables do not do what $40k cables do. You are really a lucky person if you prefer the $40 cable. If you are able to do the same for sources, amplifiers and speakers you are a very lucky person!

Cables are like electronics. Surely cable colorations are different from electronics colorations - it would be great to have an electronic box that could mimic Nordost Odin Gold! People do not know really why they prefer their Lamm's or DartZeels in terms of measurements or technicalities and are happy with that.

When I want to listen to a "reference" (not preferred) sound I use "my reference" - a Quad 606 mk2 driven by the Studer A80 or the Vivaldi DAC with the Mogami's that are closer to the system (I have a few pairs and they sound different ...).

Oh come on, "everything introduces coloration" is a "no duh" and isn't the point. I will finish this sidebar saying that cables can be susceptible to noise but not the source of noise. Distortion needs to be clearly defined. It's a very unusual scenario for a cable to introduce measurable distortion.

 

[microstrip]

Dear Micro. It would be more value adding if you could tell us what model of Mogami you use in your "reference." And why you prefer this model to the others ( which model also?).

As I said I take any of them indifferently. I have 2534 , 2791 and 2497. All terminated with RCA or XLR Neutrik connectors. They sound different, but I never did a systematic comparison.

 

[microstrip]

Oh come on, "everything introduces coloration" is a "no duh" and isn't the point. I will finish this sidebar saying that cables can be susceptible to noise but not the source of noise. Distortion needs to be clearly defined. It's a very unusual scenario for a cable to introduce measurable distortion.

Sorry, IMHO it is the critical point for your $40 argument. Noise and distortion are classic notions, well defined.

 

[XV-1]

Yes I know, Tang also did it with Denon OFC and Kuro, I liked that one

I have heard Vyda in the General's system. I have no idea if it sounded the best because of it or despite it, since I did not do any cable compare there, so I will not write off Vyda yet.

Vyda cable is very good, however it's nowhere near what anyone would call neutral.
But, who wants neutral in hifi?

 

[christoph]

Vyda cable is very good, however it's nowhere near what anyone would call neutral.
But, who wants neutral in hifi?

If they are not neutral, how would you describe the sonic signature of the Vyda cables?

 

[XV-1]

If they are not neutral, how would you describe the sonic signature of the Vyda cables?

A little like SPU cartridges. Rich, musical, large soundstage but forward in the frequency of vocals and lead instruments - lower treble I guess you call it.

That is hearing the silver cables i have not heard the copper cables

 

[christoph]

A little like SPU cartridges. Rich, musical, large soundstage but forward in the frequency of vocals and lead instruments - lower treble I guess you call it.

That is hearing the silver cables i have not heard the copper cables

Thank you for your description

 

[Tango]

Late 1950's cart playing as good if not better than the best of today. The Neumann DST62 is excellent in voices. Its presentation is very unique. Not accurate. A painting rather than a camera capture. Has its own shading and charm imo. Its sibling the Neuman DST a total different cart. Both are a must have rare item.

 

[zerostargeneral]

Crushed it master Tang.

Kindest regards,G.

 

[Tango]

A different angle of my room. The sound from video is pretty much representative of real in that position. I am still learning about pro audio cables. Still have 5-6 different brand and models to try. Very time consuming and patient practicing testing cables. But this is the only way to get natural sound at minimal cost. In the end, we listen holistically not listening to any particular piece of the system.

 

[tima]

A different angle of my room.

V. v. nice Tang. First few seconds are quite interesting. Out of the gate the initial cymbal splash and piano notes are so good, then the first stroke of brushes on drumhead set the context and perspective between piano, sax and drum kit. (~0:01 - 0:10) Could tell by the second note (~0:10) this was 'over the rainbow', the tonality is there. For a few brief seconds starting around ~0:08 there is the background sound of the audience, which fades to a mirage, and then is gone for the rest of recording. Whomever put this together knew what they were doing. Wonderful.

Agree cables are a pita - lots of work for a result. I've been there too. Yr system is so revealing, heard differences should be obvious.

 

[Tango]

V. v. nice Tang. First few seconds are quite interesting. Out of the gate the initial cymbal splash and piano notes are so good, then the first stroke of brushes on drumhead set the context and perspective between piano, sax and drum kit. (~0:01 - 0:10) Could tell by the second note (~0:10) this was 'over the rainbow', the tonality is there. For a few brief seconds starting around ~0:08 there is the background sound of the audience, which fades to a mirage, and then is gone for the rest of recording. Whomever put this together knew what they were doing. Wonderful.

Agree cables are a pita - lots of work for a result. I've been there too. Yr system is so revealing, heard differences should be obvious.

I must thank ddk for the direction and recommended gears he has been giving me. I have been trying to fault him but without prejudice none of the things he guided me missed the mark. He has been advising me to change my cables for years. I only started to do this five-six months back starting with the speaker cable. Then I re-routed my electricity line with stranded Yazaki homepro cable using his recipe. (Btw, David did not recommend any particular brand of electric wire. My choice of Yazaki was just because it is one of the biggest producer in Thailand.) I would say these two things bring about more natural more palpable sound to my room. But some how I did not get the effect and heard positive things right away like many people did. All new wires I put in needed a lot of time to settle the presentation and rid the "glass coating-like" effect on high-mid to high. What you hear in video was also from the Neumann DST, the white one. This cart has such righteous tone and timbre. The "timing" of this cart (and also the black Neumann) makes me wonder if modern cart maker including Mr.Van den Hul try to satisfy us audiophile's preference in fast, lightning quick, exciting sound too much. The Neumann is almost like gently tapping you on your shoulder and say " Take it easy and listen to this." The music just has more emotion. With the kind of pace that seem normal but no way shy of excitement while exhibiting contrast, shift in musician move even better than my master Sig. I don't know how much time you spent listening the Neumann at ddk's. But if you listen to it for a day you will have the same impression as mine. The over the rain bow video shows that that's why you like the video. I think you and I listen for the same attributes. Thank you for your compliment, Tima.

 

[tima]

I must thank ddk for the direction and recommended gears he has been giving me. I have been trying to fault him but without prejudice none of the things he guided me missed the mark. He has been advising me to change my cables for years. I only started to do this five-six months back starting with the speaker cable. Then I re-routed my electricity line with stranded Yazaki homepro cable using his recipe. (Btw, David did not recommend any particular brand of electric wire. My choice of Yazaki was just because it is one of the biggest producer in Thailand.) I would say these two things bring about more natural more palpable sound to my room. But some how I did not get the effect and heard positive things right away like many people did. All new wires I put in needed a lot of time to settle the presentation and rid the "glass coating-like" effect on high-mid to high. What you hear in video was also from the Neumann DST, the white one. This cart has such righteous tone and timbre. The "timing" of this cart (and also the black Neumann) makes me wonder if modern cart maker including Mr.Van den Hul try to satisfy us audiophile's preference in fast, lightning quick, exciting sound too much. The Neumann is almost like gently tapping you on your shoulder and say " Take it easy and listen to this." The music just has more emotion. With the kind of pace that seem normal but no way shy of excitement while exhibiting contrast, shift in musician move even better than my master Sig. I don't know how much time you spent listening the Neumann at ddk's. But if you listen to it for a day you will have the same impression as mine. The over the rain bow video shows that that's why you like the video. I think you and I listen for the same attributes. Thank you for your compliment, Tima.

The Neumann I heard at David's was a true hghlight of my visit. We played Beethoven VC with Artur Grumiaux using the AS2000, SME3012R with the Neumann and the Grand Cru. This is an excellent recording that Peter brought with him. I remarked that I had never before heard Grumiaux's tone so dense and sweet - palpable as you say -- as I heard through Neumann, all the way to the tippytop of the range. I kept expecting the tone to go leaner as he climbed the octaves yet it stayed rich and strong. The listening was emotional for me though I tried to hide that. Setup of the Grand Cru may or may not have been optimal but the differences between it and the Neumann is obvious. We listened through it maybe 80% of our time. I am sad the cartridge will not see more production but am grateful for the opportunity to have heard it.

With top quality systems like you and David have it is easy to grasp changes with wires but yes the settling / break-in is there, but not always obvious when it is done. Perhaps a time for digital so cartridges and tubes are not spent for break-in. With David's help I too have found it easy to experiment with low cost industrial wire. I would rather buy records than spendy cables.

 

[bazelio]

A different angle of my room. The sound from video is pretty much representative of real in that position. I am still learning about pro audio cables. Still have 5-6 different brand and models to try. Very time consuming and patient practicing testing cables. But this is the only way to get natural sound at minimal cost. In the end, we listen holistically not listening to any particular piece of the system.

Sounds great, Tang. Which Ben Webster pressing is this?

 

[Tango]

Sounds great, Tang. Which Ben Webster pressing is this?

Wow. How do you know it's Ben Webster.

 

[Tango]

@bezelio. If you like live ambient I recommend this Duke Ellington too. The music becomes really tasty if you have fried banana while listening like me.

 

[bazelio]

I do have an air fryer!