SPACE: THE FINAL FRONTIER

[treitz3]

Comments are just that. Comments.

Most all of the latest comments all are about MQA...which has NOTHING to do with the topic Karen Sumner is discussing. It's an off topic discussion that is better suited for another thread. Please feel free to discuss this elsewhere.

Let's all get back to the topic Karen started please. Thank you in advance all.

Tom

 

[Karen Sumner]

Comments are just that. Comments.

Most all of the latest comments all are about MQA...which has NOTHING to do with the topic Karen Sumner is discussing. It's an off topic discussion that is better suited for another thread. Please feel free to discuss this elsewhere.

Let's all get back to the topic Karen started please. Thank you in advance all.

Tom

Thank you all who helped clean up this room. I hope we can keep it that way.

I believe we have only begun to talk about "SPACE" and how to achieve it in a home listening environment. There is more to come.

 

[Steve Williams]

Good morning Karen

reading your threads and new posts has become part of my daily morning ritual.

We are all looking forward to your further contributions

 

[PeterA]

I believe we have only begun to talk about "SPACE" and how to achieve it in a home listening environment. There is more to come.

Hello Karen,

I have just returned from a second trip to visit David Karmeli in Utah. One of the important take-aways from this second visit was an improved appreciation for what you refer to as space, and David refers to as "ambiance". Over the two visits, I heard seven different speaker systems with a variety of turntables and cartridges, even a digital source, different cables, and a full selection of the various Lamm electronics, some discontinued, some in current production, from 18 watt SET to Class A push pull tube, to 100 watt Class A solid state.

All of the systems conveyed a good sense of space, regardless of the gear or the room. I heard this same natural quality of the character of the space in which the musicians are playing from each system, and I hear it now from my own system at home. I have come to realize that this sense of ambiance or space is basically information that is imbedded in the recording, captured from the original performance. This is not about the speaker as was asked in my Utah visit thread. This is about the whole system having a level of resolution that allows the listener to hear the information on the recording. It begins with good basic power delivery to the components which I am learning about right now in my own system.

The challenge is to not lose this information somewhere along the chain through poor gear choices, room treatments, wire choices, or set up decisions. I have also heard the effect injected into systems by cables that enhance certain frequencies. However, when this happens, everything sounds the same from recording to recording, and it’s really not the same quality of naturalness. In fact, it is quite unnatural sounding, and it immediately tells me that I am listening to a high-fi sounding system.

This is one of the big lessons I learned with this most recent visit to Utah. Fellow member Tima and I heard a truly impressive rendering of space on three recordings: A Bach organ and trumpet recording in a cathedral, Ella Fitzerald singing and Joe Pass playing his guitar at a cafe or jazz club, and Peter Schierer singing Winterreisse. In each case, with eyes closed, we were transported to the venue and in the presence of the musicians and instruments. We clearly heard the distinct characteristics of each space on those recordings. The information exists there on the recording. The challenge is to leave it intact and deliver it to the listener. David's systems all did this.

The other aspect of all this that I realized while visiting is that the natural resolution required to present convincing ambiance also results in natural tone and dynamics. These qualities come together. They are all embedded in the recording and are interrelated. It's basically all about information and not corrupting it before the listener has a chance to hear it. We can achieve this sense of space or ambience, (Tima's context) by simply choosing the proper gear and setting it up well. In some, rare instances, as I heard from David's main Bionor system and the vintage JBL M9500s, the sense of being in the space is quite extraordinary and unlike what I have heard from other systems.

 

[bazelio]

Why should "space" and "ambience" be synonymous terms for audio when they mean different things in actuality?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Why should "space" and "ambience" be synonymous terms for audio when they mean different things in actuality?

agree.

space is perceptions of how big and directions, ambience is perceptions of how much and what.

going from the ML3's, to VAC 450 Statements, to darTZeel 458's; each had different ways of doing each.

 

[PeterA]

Why should "space" and "ambience" be synonymous terms for audio when they mean different things in actuality?

That’s a good question Brian. I have the impression from reading posts in this thread that Karen refers to this quality as space, David calls it ambience, Jim Smith calls it presence, and Tim calls it context. I think it basically means the environment in which the musicians are playing their instruments and the character of that space.

I may be mistaken in my understanding of how these people use these terms, but it is the impression I have from reading this thread. Perhaps Karen or David or Tim will discuss this further. It is fascinating to me how people seem to focus on specific words and semantics rather than the content of the posts.

Do you have an opinion about Karen’s comment about ways to achieve these qualities in an audio system?

 

[Al M.]

agree.

space is perceptions of how big and directions, ambience is perceptions of how much and what.

going from the ML3's, to VAC 450 Statements, to darTZeel 458's; each had different ways of doing each.

Agree as well. The space of a performance should expand dramatically if going from intimately recorded chamber music to large orchestra in a large hall.

Yet the ambience of that concert hall will differ dramatically from that of an equally sized stone church.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Space / scale is directly correlated to bass performance.
Plus good tape can do space very well.
Plus there is no subsutute for a great room i think

 

[Al M.]

It is fascinating to me how people seem to focus on specific words and semantics rather than the content of the posts.

Often focus on specific words and semantics is necessary to clarify content and being able to discuss it.

Content does not miraculously exist in a vacuum.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I m a bit exited how my new poweramp , the CAT jl5 black path will perform in that regard .
I expect more transparency / detail a bettter rendering of the recorded space .
I havent had a new poweramp in my system since 2014.

Ps ideally i would like to have a Halcro power amp side by side and do some back and forth

 

[bazelio]

That’s a good question Brian. I have the impression from reading posts in this thread that Karen refers to this quality as space, David calls it ambience, Jim Smith calls it presence, and Tim calls it context. I think it basically means the environment in which the musicians are playing their instruments and the character of that space.

I may be mistaken in my understanding of how these people use these terms, but it is the impression I have from reading this thread. Perhaps Karen or David or Tim will discuss this further. It is fascinating to me how people seem to focus on specific words and semantics rather than the content of the posts.

Do you have an opinion about Karen’s comment about ways to achieve these qualities in an audio system?

LOL. So now you suggest we ignore the words and infer the content after you've corrected at least one person for using space to actually mean space by telling them it means ambience because David says so. Peter, it's no wonder these threads stray into never never land ad nauseam.

 

[PeterA]

Agree as well. The space of a performance should expand dramatically if going from intimately recorded chamber music to large orchestra in a large hall.

Yet the ambience of that concert hall will differ dramatically from that of an equally sized stone church.

No one said the character of the space shouldn’t be different for each circumstance and recording. No one said the ambience doesn’t change. The problem is with specific gear that makes everything sound the same. I learned that lesson the hard way with my old choices and equipment. Of course the ambience of a classical concert hall is different from that of a church or a jazz club or a recording studio. The term ambience covers all of that including a sense of the dimensions of the space. It’s an all encompassing descriptive term just like natural. The system can either do it or it can’t. Of course there are different degrees of success.

 

[bazelio]

agree.

space is perceptions of how big and directions, ambience is perceptions of how much and what.

going from the ML3's, to VAC 450 Statements, to darTZeel 458's; each had different ways of doing each.

Right, and I've heard space without ambience and ambience without space. They're mutually exclusive and should be discussed separately.

 

[PeterA]

Often focus on specific words and semantics is necessary to clarify content and being able to discuss it.

Content does not miraculously exist in a vacuum.

I have explained the terms and I attempted to address Karen’s comment. Perhaps you can try to do the same if you’re even interested. I’m fine if we disagree, but you just seem to be arguing. Present your alternative take on the subject and point out where you disagree with me and where I am wrong. Then we can have a meaningful discussion.

 

[PeterA]

LOL. So now you suggest we ignore the words and infer the content after you've corrected at least one person for using space to actually mean space by telling them it means ambience because David says so. Peter, it's no wonder these threads stray into never never land ad nauseam.

I have explained the terms and I attempted to address Karen’s comment. Perhaps you can try to do the same if you’re even interested. I’m fine if we disagree, but you just seem to be arguing. Present your alternative take on the subject and point out where you disagree with me and where I am wrong. Then we can have a meaningful discussion.

 

[bazelio]

I think it's clear precisely where at least three people disagree with what you've written. Why it's not clear to you, I have no idea.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have explained the terms and I attempted to address Karen’s comment. Perhaps you can try to do the same if you’re even interested. I’m fine if we disagree, but you just seem to be arguing. Present your alternative take on the subject and point out where you disagree with me and where I am wrong. Then we can have a meaningful discussion.

for instance, in my room the ML3's had excellent (ever so slightly more than the darts) ambience, but relatively (to the darts) much less space and light on the far reaches of the stage.

so viewing the terms ambience and space as equivalent misses the boat totally on understanding of what actually was going on.

 

[bazelio]

for instance, in my room the ML3's had excellent (ever so slightly more than the darts) ambience, but relatively (to the darts) much less space and light on the far reaches of the stage.

so viewing the terms ambience and space as equivalent misses the boat totally on understanding of what actually was going on.

Mike, was this comparison with the 458s or the 468s?

 

[tima]

Content does not miraculously exist in a vacuum.

So you need a guide when you go to an art gallery?