State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[Elliot G.]

LOL you guys are just plain Horn.... E

 

[PeterA]

40 pages of text. Time for visuals

Here is < 20k of Altec A5 and Marantz 300b or a 417a amp he uses them alternately

And here is over a million. Add the real estate

Ked, this is a very interesting statement on the current state of the industry. We are comparing two YouTube videos and discussing them on an audio forum on our phones or computers - a much different exchange than what we might have had a decade ago. The owner of the vintage system is clearly enjoying himself, and he seems a collector/hobbyist. The second system will surely impress a bunch of audiophiles. It is expensive and comprised of some of the latest/greatest. It's curious that neither seems to be playing an LP.

The vintage system is easily the better value with great dynamics, but it sounds a bit muffled and closed-in in the upper bass I'd think newbies would love it if they could find it and have the space and want to deal with it. The second system has some sonic issues too. It is surely aspirational for some, perhaps many. It has all the audiophile stuff - room treatment diffusion and tube absorbers, fancy cables/cords, platforms, risers, disks - a real tweak delight. I like the rack for the outlet box. A dealer likely had a great time selling and setting it all up.

I suspect listeners will be divided about which sounds better, and possibly not like either one very much. The interesting thing is to see how the items have changed over time and how much the sound differs. It's pretty wild, actually. Too bad you don't have these playing some different music.

 

[tima]

Why do you write that Audionirvana failed? There is active discussion on that forum.

This thread would not be tolerated there.

 

[sbnx]

It is sad that Art Dudley has passed. He was very much into the more boutique stuff.

But I will talk to Robert Harley and see if there are ways to address this.

The recent gy8 article on the telefunken CS20 is fantastic. There should be a lot more stuff like this. It would encourage way more people into HIFI. Much more back to the roots of the hobby. How to spend a couple $100 on a turntable with a little effort and get great sound. Of course not going to get direct advertising dollars for this. But more of this type thing and maybe get more subscribers who are willing to pay more for the content.

 

[Al M.]

40 pages of text. Time for visuals

Here is < 20k of Altec A5 and Marantz 300b or a 417a amp he uses them alternately

And here is over a million. Add the real estate

Well, that's an easy choice.

 

[Kingrex]

Jay and Mike are putting on a Q&A at Axpona. No room. It might just me a fireside in the bar. And I did good talkimg with Jay 6 months ago. He was $75 an hour then. Now he is $200.

 

[tima]

The vintage system is easily the better value with great dynamics, but it sounds a bit muffled and closed-in in the upper bass I'd think newbies would love it if they could find it and have the space and want to deal with it. The second system has some sonic issues too.

More cowbell!

To my ears the Altec system clearly has better mid-to-lower-mid-range harmonics than the Wilson system - some of this may be tubes and ss. Listen to the opening cowbell, snare and cymbals, the the percussion throughout. Masakela's flugelhorn has a richer deeper tone and the attack is that of an accomplished player..

 

[howiebrou]

Jay and Mike are putting on a Q&A at Axpona. No room. It might just me a fireside in the bar. And I did good talkimg with Jay 6 months ago. He was $75 an hour then. Now he is $200.

$200 an hour for what, a consultation?

 

[tima]

$200 an hour for what, a consultation?

Lay on the couch, tell me about your mother.

 

[andromedaaudio]

$200 an hour for what, a consultation?

May be its like an " aflaat " in the midldle ages .
A paid confession to releave you of your sins .
Buying 20 K worth of cables for example and feeling guilty about it .

 

[bonzo75]

More cowbell!

To my ears the Altec system clearly has better mid-to-lower-mid-range harmonics than the Wilson system - some of this may be tubes and ss. Listen to the opening cowbell, snare and cymbals, the the percussion throughout. Masakela's flugelhorn has a richer deeper tone and the attack is that of an accomplished player..

Precisely. The drums, snare, are quite superior. After the first thwack you get more internal resonance and decay. Altec woofers are high quality 15 inch drivers. This is a one driver Altec, dual is Also possible and much more potent. Also, unlike the tape, the dCS Rossini is not improving the source sound. The swing of the voice and the emotion is better due to the 300b..

What the Wilson system does better, more due to the CH, is the ambience on the recording. This can be improved in the horn by rolling over the Altec midrange to the TAD or Radian beryllium (easy swap) and using elrog 300b tubes. I haven't compared the Jensen tweeter but the TAD tweeter or small driver also extends that ambience

 

[Lee]

Jay and Mike are putting on a Q&A at Axpona. No room. It might just me a fireside in the bar. And I did good talkimg with Jay 6 months ago. He was $75 an hour then. Now he is $200.

Which Mike?

 

[Lee]

The recent gy8 article on the telefunken CS20 is fantastic. There should be a lot more stuff like this. It would encourage way more people into HIFI. Much more back to the roots of the hobby. How to spend a couple $100 on a turntable with a little effort and get great sound. Of course not going to get direct advertising dollars for this. But more of this type thing and maybe get more subscribers who are willing to pay more for the content.

Sadly, subscriber revenue will not support a media company; it’s just not a big enough market. You have to have advertising. We are examining ways to expand the affordable audio coverage we do. A couple of good ideas are brewing there.

 

[morricab]

Is this before or after the recent hyper inflation?

He can’t get enough of “Keith Don’t Go” ... ....maybe he should hang out at the Munich show ...they will oblige him until he screams “Keith Please Go!” ...

 

[Al M.]

Precisely. The drums, snare, are quite superior. After the first thwack you get more internal refinance and decay. Altec woofers are high quality 15 inch drivers. This is a one driver Altec, dual is Also possible and much more potent. Also, unlike the tape, the dCS Rossini is not improving the source sound. The swing of the voice and the emotion is better due to the 300b..

What the Wilson system does better, more due to the CH, is the ambience on the recording. This can be improved in the horn by rolling over the Altec midrange to the TAD or Radian beryllium (easy swap) and using elrog 300b tubes. I haven't compared the Jensen tweeter but the TAD tweeter or small driver also extends that ambience

Yes, the horn system sounds vastly superior and more natural, even though slightly muffled, which could be amended by extending the highs. It's a quite good sound overall.

Taking the sound at face value, i.e., assuming that what I hear from the video at home through laptop and headphones (as with the horn video) correctly portrays the sound, the Wilson system is unlistenable. Unbearable sibilance in the vocal, nasty, brittle percussion at the flugelhorn solo around 5 minutes. The flugelhorn has a brutally sharp edge. Everything is tipped up and thin. Extraordinarily unpleasant.

Don't know what happened there. It might take days to take the complex system apart and rebuild it (with generous resources in cable and platform changes etc), trying to figure out what's going wrong at each step. The room acoustics don't seem to help either. And perhaps the Wilsons are set up dreadfully by whatever "expert" who was at work here (from what I've heard, might not be the first time that Wilsons are set up incorrectly).

Waste of a million dollar system.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Taking the sound at face value, i.e., assuming that what I hear from the video at home through laptop and headphones (as with the horn video) correctly portrays the sound,

Luckily not Al.

 

[bonzo75]

Having heard the X2S2 with Lamm, Dagostino Momentums, Spectral, and with Viva Stack and CH stack, and the XLF with Spectral and with VTL, outside show conditions, that is a fair representation.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Be happy with those DIY horns .
It saves a lot of money .

There are manufacturers who take the effort to built Ls wiith phenolic resin composite cabinets .
And quite a few appreciate the sound despte the higher cost

 

[PeterA]

Having heard the X2S2 with Lamm, Dagostino Momentums, Spectral, and with Viva Stack and CH stack, and the XLF with Spectral and with VTL, outside show conditions, that is a fair representation.

The quality of the sound from contemporary gear and how it is set up is only one aspect of the state of the high end audio industry, but it is a very important aspect. Bonzo posts many videos of vintage systems, mostly horn and vinyl and tube based systems, and they can tell us a lot.

We have to go beyond this forum to see videos of contemporary solid state digital cone systems. But they exist on YouTube and they’re a big part of Jay’s audio lab website. Based on the comments below his videos, people like the sound of his systems.

For me, this video comparison is quite interesting. How can we be impressed with an old system jammed into a basement seemingly haphazardly with none of the fancy tweaks and accessories that have entered the industry and not drool over the quality of sound (even over one of these videos) of some of the greatest brands, super expensive with all the bells and whistle’s and highly profitable add-ons that are represented in the contemporary system?

It is safe to assume from the specific components in the second system that they were sold and set up by a dealer. Why is the sound so bad? What does that say about the state of the industry? Big bucks for what exactly? It must be an anomaly and not representative. For the sake of the industry, the famous brands, and the dealers, I sure hope so.

 

[Rhapsody]

The quality of the sound from contemporary gear and how it is set up is only one aspect of the state of the high end audio industry, but it is a very important aspect. Bonzo posts many videos of vintage systems, mostly horn and vinyl and tube based systems, and they can tell us a lot.

We have to go beyond this forum to see videos of contemporary solid state digital cone systems. But they exist on YouTube and they’re a big part of Jay’s audio lab website. Based on the comments below his videos, people like the sound of his systems.

For me, this video comparison is quite interesting. How can we be impressed with an old system jammed into a basement seemingly haphazardly with none of the fancy tweaks and accessories that have entered the industry and not drool over the quality of sound (even over one of these videos) of some of the greatest brands, super expensive with all the bells and whistle’s and highly profitable add-ons that are represented in the contemporary system?

It is safe to assume from the specific components in the second system that they were sold and set up by a dealer. Why is the sound so bad? What does that say about the state of the industry? Big bucks for what exactly? It must be an anomaly and not representative. For the sake of the industry, the famous brands, and the dealers, I sure hope so.

My take on it - there are K's of vintage systems that sound great. There are also K's of contemporary systems that sound great. Just like there are K's of vintage cars that are GREAT and K's of new cars that are great. Same goes for instruments (guitars, pianos, horns).

I personally enjoy BOTH vintage systems and contemporary systems, as long as they draw me into the music. They can even have flaws. I can over look the flaws if overall they mesmerize me.

You can find bad sounding vintage systems and you can find bad sounding contemporary systems.

To take a few sample videos from YT is nothing more than comparing that exact video vs the other video. It has nothing to do with vintage or contemporary systems in general. YMMV