Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[Lagonda]

Peter,

I explained it in the post, I will try to make it even more simple for you.

1. Measurements of cables carried in the audio band do not show differences - it is why the objectivist people are usually cable skeptics.
2, Tang referred that he only changed cables between the two videos.
3. The spectra shown are audio measurements.
4. The spectra show noticeable differences (different amplitude at the same frequency) .
5. 1, 3 and 4 imply that something other than the cables changed during the recording that affected the tonal balance of the recording in a way that can be measured and surely affects the comparison. Surely there is an explanation for it.



I am able to explain you my views on audio science and measurements and debate them, but humor is subjective. As long you do not post videos taken with different power cords I have nothing to say about the subject.

Remember - if an audio measurement would show differences between "decent" power cords we would not have endless, vague and inconclusive debates on them!

You are not showing measurements of different cords Francisco, you are showing audio measurements of the interaction of different cord with amplifiers, sources and speakers in the mix. Very different !

 

[microstrip]

You are not showing measurements of different cords Francisco, you are showing audio measurements of the interaction of different cord with amplifiers, sources and speakers in the mix. Very different !

Yes, I know and explained it. I was only replying to Peter, as he referred to power cables in the end of his post ! But I will edit it, considering it can cause confusion. Thanks.

 

[PeterA]

You are not showing measurements of different cords Francisco, you are showing audio measurements of the interaction of different cord with amplifiers, sources and speakers in the mix. Very different !

I think it is speaker and phono cables, not power cords. At least that is what Tang described is the difference between the two videos. There are other differences too including the power delivery to the room and the room acoustics caused by the positioning of the blinds.

 

[howiebrou]

You could test Howie's food and tell him that the chemicals are slightly different, but in the end, they are both red meat dishes with spices and he knows which flavor he prefers.

If it was me, I would just eat both dishes for good measure.

 

[Tango]

I wonder if listeners’ opinions would be the same if you had not told us which video has which cables. Calling the wires cheap Japanese cables may simply turn some people off while it interests others. Perhaps I am highly biased and like the second video simply because you told us it has cheap and old basic copper cables. That’s my thing now.

Frankly, my intention showing two different videos is also to reflect that I don't get crappy sound using cheaper cables. I would like to show forum members a way to save some money constructing a system. I cannot be so definite with this approach that it would work excellently in all systems. But if you have similar gears like mine, the Lamm, I am quite sure you can safe yourself a lot of money on power cords and cables. Instead of buying expensive power cords, you could just spend a little on making a direct electricity line to your listening room using inexpensive industrial electrical product. I am not advertising or promoting Lamm I am only using my system as a supporting evidence.

 

[ScottB]

The DGG Bernstein and ASD Barbirolli are both very good.

I didn't know Barbirolli recorded the 3rd on LP as the ASD implies. Symphonies 5,6 & 9 yes and and are well loved in these parts as are the song cycles he recorded. Do you have a catalogue for the 3rd?

 

[bazelio]

I think we have a thread about using cable to cook a sound. I am one of those who like exploring cables and enjoy learning how they shape the sound. It is fun and interesting to have flexibility changing sound presentation...especially when it costs very little. Video 1 is all Kuro silvergold cables. Video 2 the speaker cables and phono cable were changed to inexpensive Japanese copper cables. I like the copper cable very much. Both Kuro and the Japanese cable offer advantages over one another. Cables are dependent on main components in the system. Often you cannot generalize them.

Video 1

Video 2

Hmm. I don't have a clear preference for either. I prefer the tone of the horns in video 2. But the percussion in video 2 sounds wooly and indistinct, maybe thuddy. Also the mids are fairly thick in video 2. Video 1 sounds comparatively liberated and unrestrained but the pitch could be a bit off. Perhaps the sound is a bit shouty. Is video 1 louder, by chance? And is Kuro vs Japanese the only difference? I guess if I had to choose a starting point, I'd go with video 1 and try to adjust timbre and pitch in the system. I feel like tube rolling might be an experiment worth trying with the Kuro cables in place.

 

[bonzo75]

I didn't know Barbirolli recorded the 3rd on LP as the ASD implies. Symphonies 5,6 & 9 yes and and are well loved in these parts as are the song cycles he recorded. Do you have a catalogue for the 3rd?

Sorry you are right. The stereo LP isn't available. There is a rare mono ALP 2047/48 from 1963.

 

[Tango]

Hmm. I don't have a clear preference for either. I prefer the tone of the horns in video 2. But the percussion in video 2 sounds wooly and indistinct, maybe thuddy. Also the mids are fairly thick in video 2. Video 1 sounds comparatively liberated and unrestrained but the pitch could be a bit off. Perhaps the sound is a bit shouty. Is video 1 louder, by chance? And is Kuro vs Japanese the only difference? I guess if I had to choose a starting point, I'd go with video 1 and try to adjust timbre and pitch in the system. I feel like tube rolling might be an experiment worth trying with the Kuro cables in place.

I think you pretty much heard what I am hearing.

- All horn sound better with Japanese regardless of music or recording.
- Percussion in video 2 (I think you mean tympani drum ) does sound a little thuddy. A more articulation will be good. I am in the process of verifying this aspect with a lot more records in different music.
- Mid is denser all the way with the Japanese cable. When you listen to vocal you will know which is the one to go to. If I just take out the phono cable and replace with SME stock it will lean down the mid. The Japanese cable has the mid leaning toward Western Electric type sound imo. If you like the flat tone of GM70 and Telefunken you will say the cable is color.
- The loudness on both videos is not significantly different if not the same. The sense of openness and unrestrained is more on video 1 because the presentation is more birdeye distant. I did mention that with Kuro I could feel more space surrounding the orchestra. Also The tone is leaner making distance between sound of each instrument more apart. Tail end sound also comes with a bit more reverb.
- Cable is not the only difference. Video 2 was taken after the direct electricity line from pole to room had been made.
- Tube rolling has been experimenting. Mullard, Telefunken and Mazda on Emt phono and ML3.

 

[tima]

Frankly, my intention showing two different videos is also to reflect that I don't get crappy sound using cheaper cables. I would like to show forum members a way to save some money constructing a system. I cannot be so definite with this approach that it would work excellently in all systems. But if you have similar gears like mine, the Lamm, I am quite sure you can safe yourself a lot of money on power cords and cables.

Ya gotta love it ...
Buy Lamm Save Money !

I don't have your system but my experience with non-audiophile cables and cords with all Lamm electronics is similar. Thank you @ddk.

 

[morricab]

Peter,

I explained it in the post, I will try to make it even more simple for you.

1. Measurements of cables carried in the audio band do not show differences - it is why the objectivist people are usually cable skeptics.
2, Tang referred that he only changed cables between the two videos.
3. The spectra shown are audio measurements.
4. The spectra show noticeable differences (different amplitude at the same frequency) .
5. 1, 3 and 4 imply that something other than the cables changed during the recording that affected the tonal balance of the recording in a way that can be measured and surely affects the comparison. Surely there is an explanation for it.



I am able to explain you my views on audio science and measurements and debate them, but humor is subjective. As long you do not post videos taken with different power cords I have nothing to say about the subject.

Remember - if an audio measurement would show differences between "decent" cables - signal or power cords we would not have endless, vague and inconclusive debates on them!

I have never seen cable measurements with actual complex music signals. Are you sure differences would not be visible in the spectral analysis?

 

[PeterA]

I have never seen cable measurements with actual complex music signals. Are you sure differences would not be visible in the spectral analysis?

AJ Conti of Basis Audio sold me a cartridge once. When I visited to pick it up, he explained that he also designed cables. He showed me measurements of seven leading high end cables. They were square waves. They all looked different and he explained how the shapes of those square waves corresponded to their different sounds.

 

[microstrip]

I have never seen cable measurements with actual complex music signals. Are you sure differences would not be visible in the spectral analysis?

Yes. As far as I know the only person who reported audio measurements with cables was van den Hul, that developed a custom jig to measure cables reported in an interview that cable differences were down to -140 dB.

People have carried null tests between cables, an extreme sensibility test to analyze cables and could not measure any meaningful difference. "Decent" cables are just a subjective matter.

 

[microstrip]

AJ Conti of Basis Audio sold me a cartridge once. When I visited to pick it up, he explained that he also designed cables. He showed me measurements of seven leading high end cables. They were square waves. They all looked different and he explained how the shapes of those square waves corresponded to their different sounds.

Sorry, Peter, but this argument is as childish as those who pretended that CD could not sound good because it failed to reproduce a perfect square wave. A square signal has harmonics outside the audio band. Different capacitance in cables will result in different bandwidths and surely in different distortion of square waveforms, easily noticeable in the pictures. "Decent cables" means cables that have adequate capacitance , resistance and inductance - it is possible to design a cables that spoil the signal significantly in the audio band - I have measured a few.

The measurements I presented showed large differences in the audio band.

 

[PeterA]

Sorry, Peter, but this argument is as childish as those who pretended that CD could not sound good because it failed to reproduce a perfect square wave. A square signal has harmonics outside the audio band. Different capacitance in cables will result in different bandwidths and surely in different distortion of square waveforms, easily noticeable in the pictures. "Decent cables" means cables that have adequate capacitance , resistance and inductance - it is possible to design a cables that spoil the signal significantly in the audio band - I have measured a few.

The measurements I presented showed large differences in the audio band.

Fransisco, my only point is that AJ Conti told me directly that as a cable designer, he was able to measure differences between cables and he claimed to be able to correlate the measurements to what he heard with the cables. I don't know what "decent cables" has to do with it. Tang's cables are certainly decent. We hear differences, he hears differences. We each have expressed preferences and we make choices. I don't know what the argument is about.

 

[microstrip]

Fransisco, my only point is that AJ Conti told me directly that as a cable designer, he was able to measure differences between cables and he claimed to be able to correlate the measurements to what he heard with the cables. I don't know what "decent cables" has to do with it. Tang's cables are certainly decent. We hear differences, he hears differences. We each have expressed preferences and we make choices. I don't know what the argument is about.

Peter,

I tried to explain, my apologies if I do not manage to explain you anything technical. It is not possible to discuss audio measurements in musical terminology.

My points are technical and clear. Tango presented a digital recording, that is intrinsically a measurement, and I discussed it as such. Probably by ignorance, not by intention, IMHO you misrepresent AJ Conti intentions. All we are debating is spectral analysis in the audio band.

 

[Al M.]

Sorry, Peter, but this argument is as childish as those who pretended that CD could not sound good because it failed to reproduce a perfect square wave. A square signal has harmonics outside the audio band. Different capacitance in cables will result in different bandwidths and surely in different distortion of square waveforms, easily noticeable in the pictures. "Decent cables" means cables that have adequate capacitance , resistance and inductance - it is possible to design a cables that spoil the signal significantly in the audio band - I have measured a few.

The measurements I presented showed large differences in the audio band.

Not sure, Francisco, if your argument is entirely valid. Here is an interesting video on squarewave measurements in cables where the manufacturer claims it makes a significant difference. It is not clear to me that this would directly relate to capacitance:

 

[morricab]

Yes. As far as I know the only person who reported audio measurements with cables was van den Hul, that developed a custom jig to measure cables reported in an interview that cable differences were down to -140 dB.

People have carried null tests between cables, an extreme sensibility test to analyze cables and could not measure any meaningful difference. "Decent" cables are just a subjective matter.

And yet, you would agree that they do result in clearly audible differences? Surely this must show up in measurements somewhere and not only at -140db, which I think we both would agree would not be the kind of differences that are so easily heard. I myself have conducted single blind interconnect comparisons with experienced listeners and they could not only hear the differences easily of changes but they could, after hearing them extensively sighted, pick out clearly certain ones blind.

 

[bonzo75]

Guys can we please move cable measurements to another thread? There are many threads available on cables for that, pick one, here is one https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/best-of-the-best-cables-ptas-2022-buyers-guide.33983/

 

[morricab]

Not sure, Francisco, if your argument is entirely valid. Here is an interesting video on squarewave measurements in cables where the manufacturer claims it makes a significant difference. It is not clear to me that this would directly relate to capacitance:

Goertz demonstrated that their silver foil, ultra low inductance cables could basically track a 12Khz square wave exactly.

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