Changing variables in a review

[andromedaaudio]

Indeed thats the big advantage of high eff /easy to drive transducers
Unlimited possibilties
A reviewer with a Wilson XVX will never be able to make that kind of conclusions .

 

[andromedaaudio]

If an amplifier struggles with a pair of speakers, as it did in Marty's system, and perhaps in Roy's system, I can see why Roy moved the speakers around to adjust for the bass quality

To me that can be a serious indication the amp has trouble with the speaker.
It definetively should be mentioned in the review .
You always want an amp that has more then enough reserves on a particular speaker.
That s if you want the best / most dynamic sound off course .
Some people might be satisfied with a weaker sound/ weaker bass iow a more laid back sound

 

[ddk]

David, I agree that sometimes a replaced component removes a bottle neck and the new component reveals a flaw somewhere, including set up. You've told me that you get rid of cat litter boxes and poor sounding audiophile power cords and footers so that you can actually hear what you are doing when setting up a cartridge in someone's system. I imagine the client is receptive to that coming from you. I also agree that it is not a big deal, if you know what you are doing. I also agree that a slight speaker adjustment might yield slightly better sound. Not a big deal for a typical owner, but a bigger deal in a review where people are looking for sonic effect from a new amp, not a new amp and speaker position adjustment. I think if a reviewer does that, it should be disclosed, and reasons given, so as to help the reader understand the reason for it.

I have friends who change power cords and then play with speaker positioning and room treatment because the power cords change the sound. But we are talking about an amp review in a reviewer's system that "should" not have set up issues. These review systems should be reference grade for that reviewer with good speaker positioning, good seat location, good power cords, proper cartridge set up, etc.

I was a one variable at a time guy when I started this thread, but the more arguments I read for adjustments, the more I accept the occasional benefit of that. If an amplifier struggles with a pair of speakers, as it did in Marty's system, and perhaps in Roy's system, I can see why Roy moved the speakers around to adjust for the bass quality. I did not read his review, but perhaps he explained what he did and why. That would be something worth reading in a review of such expensive CH amplifiers. Marty sharing his candid impressions is also a great data point for anyone interested in such amplifiers.

I have no idea what people are looking for reading reviews it's an individual thing nor does it matter. If you read one of @tima 's Lamm reviews and he mentioned that he moved the speakers or his listening chair by 5 inches what does that tell you about the component? You now own Lamm gear do you read and understand his review the same way? A busy reviewers system is never completely optimized everything is in a state of flux but doesn't mean that everything they write is wrong, some are very good at hearing through the fog and you'll understand their review much better when familiar with the person and their space.

Marty's recent experience has nothing to do with anyone else including reviews and reviewers, he wants to drop in an amp and for it to work or not without forcing any other changes, it's his business. @RoyGregory had a different experience with the same amps and same brand speakers so he offered something that might have been overlooked, what's the big deal? Are people suddenly sharing and not comments on an audio forum? How many times did you & I go back and forth when you first started "re-optimizing" your system? I wasn't in your room all I could do was share experience and for you to try out a few different things, what's the difference between this and @RoyGregory 's comments? IME nothing should be taken for granted including other people's data points without knowing them, their system and what they're after; your values could be diametrically opposed.

david

 

[ddk]

I m sure with clients it can be indeed a completely different story.
In that case you are stuck with non familiar variables .

We're in a connected world often it's the same or similar components I come across. 4 Wamm systems I worked with all used the same cabling and 3 brands of high powered solid state electronics that I'd come across before, I knew what to expect even before walking into the rooms, the challenge is to have them hear what I do . I've been deeply invested in high end audio in one way or another since the late 70's there's almost nothing new in gear that I haven't seen before or can't analyze. Room & setup is a different thing there's always a new challenge and often a learning experience too. My other interest is vintage speakers there are still some that I'd like to experience but pretty much have nailed down the sound characteristics of different eras, even of the same speaker.

I thought the thread / example was about a reviewer doing a review of a product .

Im sure a reviewer has to make an extra effort to get the product to sound good .
As its probably a product of a company who paid for advertising space.
Its probably not gonna be a " as hard a conclusion " as that a buyer would make

Partially but it was @marty 's thread and comments that sparked it off. You shouldn't generalize people have different approaches, experience, knowledge and abilities, it's true for the audiophile, the reviewer, the dealer and even your plumber "hard conclusions" are influenced by the person's abilities !

david

 

[andromedaaudio]

IME nothing should be taken for granted including other people's data points without knowing them, their system and what they're after; your values could be diametrically opposed.

Sure , but how much value should one give to a magazine review then ?

 

[ddk]

Sure , but how much value should one give to a magazine review then ?

There's no one answer it depends on who the reviewer and reader is. Many people read and learn about cartridges and setup from a well known and trusted by most source while I find myself objecting to what I read, that's if I care to read the article, the value here depends on the participants.

david

 

[andromedaaudio]

. I've been deeply invested in high end audio in one way or another since the late 70's

.
So you could say you have a lot of expirience .
Thats quit some time , i m sure you have seen quit a few " New eras / Better then evers " come and go

 

[tima]

Hello tima

I have a question on this. Why would you change speaker positions?? I can take quite a while to finally dial in a pair between toe-in, listening distance and distance from room boundaries.

As soon as you change speaker positions you automatically change the in-room response. This is basic acoustics and well understood.

What you actually end up comparing is your speakers in different listening positions. No amp unless it's seriously flawed will have anywhere near the frequency deviations that moving speakers around a room does.

It completely gums up the works and if you have to change your speaker positions because of an amp change something isn't right.

Rob

Hey Rob - it looks like you have plenty of spare time.

It certainly can take a while to configure optimal speaker position, though there may be no objective such thing. Nonetheless one can get reasonably satisfactory results with less labor - enough to gauge the basic character of the speaker or amp in a shorter time.

Your concerns don't really bother me for review writing purposes. My example was for reviewing an amplifier then a brief comparison with my reference amp. I already said I start with speakers in the same position as with my reference amp. In all liklihood speaker position will need to change very little if at all from what it is with my reference amp. Even so, all amp-speaker listening sessions occur in the same room. I'm hearing amp A with a set of speakers, then I'm hearing amp B with the same speakers - both listening sessions in the same room. As long as I describe what I'm doing or hearing I don't think readers get confused.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I have friends who change power cords and then play with speaker positioning and room treatment because the power cords change the sound. But we are talking about an amp review in a reviewer's system that "should" not have set up issues. These review systems should be reference grade for that reviewer with good speaker positioning, good seat location, good power cords, proper cartridge set up, etc. (...)

Stereo is a system that has no standard for "good". IMHO the function of a reference system is not just being a test bed for a reviewer, but becoming a solid point for both the reviewer and readers. It is why it is great to have some experience with the equipment the reviewer owns.

I was a one variable at a time guy when I started this thread, but the more arguments I read for adjustments, the more I accept the occasional benefit of that. If an amplifier struggles with a pair of speakers, as it did in Marty's system, and perhaps in Roy's system, I can see why Roy moved the speakers around to adjust for the bass quality. I did not read his review, but perhaps he explained what he did and why. That would be something worth reading in a review of such expensive CH amplifiers. Marty sharing his candid impressions is also a great data point for anyone interested in such amplifiers.

Curiously I did not get the idea that the amplifier "struggled" in Marty's system or even Roy's. And I read all the posts and the review. IMHO anyone seriously interested in these amplifiers should listen for himself, not look for support in reviews or candid impressions in audio forums. IMHO 99% of the negatives are due to user preference or some time of particular incompatibility in the system.

 

[tima]

I have no idea what people are looking for reading reviews it's an individual thing nor does it matter. If you read one of @tima 's Lamm reviews and he mentioned that he moved the speakers or his listening chair by 5 inches what does that tell you about the component? You now own Lamm gear do you read and understand his review the same way?

Yes, well put, David. Thank you. The character of the gear does not change if the listening chair or even my body in the chair shifts around. My goal is to learn and expose that character.

 

[jeff1225]

Lots of attacks and angry words some of which I don’t disagree but I can’t get past the cowardice of hiding behind a moniker, specially if you’re really in the industry as you claim to be. No reason to hide if you’re not afraid to back the tough talk up.

david

Funny this was my complaint about Cableman a few weeks ago and people said I was wrong to call him out for hiding behind a user name.

 

[microstrip]

There's no one answer it depends on who the reviewer and reader is. (...)

david

Stereo reviews are in some way like stereo sound reproduction. The source real information is limited, listener must de-convolute it with his experience and preferences to get an enjoyable illusion.

Reader experience and knowledge about the reviewer are determining factors in establishing the value of the review for the reader. I do not expect people who openly say that they do not care for reviews and have stayed away fo them for long years to valuate occasional reviews. But everyone likes reading someone who agrees with us or loves the equipment we own ...

 

[PeterA]

I have no idea what people are looking for reading reviews it's an individual thing nor does it matter. If you read one of @tima 's Lamm reviews and he mentioned that he moved the speakers or his listening chair by 5 inches what does that tell you about the component? You now own Lamm gear do you read and understand his review the same way? A busy reviewers system is never completely optimized everything is in a state of flux but doesn't mean that everything they write is wrong, some are very good at hearing through the fog and you'll understand their review much better when familiar with the person and their space.



david

David, I read Tim’s review of the LP 2.1 deluxe shortly after I decided to buy it. Now that I’ve lived with it for a while I have not gone back to re-read the review to know if my impression of that review has changed. I look forward to re-reading it at some point and seeing.

I think if a reviewer tells his reader that he had to move the speaker with the different amplifier that does tell me something interesting. And that is that the amplifier reacts to the speaker differently than the other amplifier did and it necessitated a relocation of the speaker because of the sound in the room. Perhaps that’s obvious to some people. But now the review is something different than just review about the two amplifiers. It’s about the two amplifiers and the speakers in that room all being adjusted to sound most pleasing to the reviewer. And that’s fine. I stopped reading most reviews a long time ago.

 

[ddk]

Stereo reviews are in some way like stereo sound reproduction. The source real information is limited, listener must de-convolute it with his experience and preferences to get an enjoyable illusion.

Reader experience and knowledge about the reviewer are determining factors in establishing the value of the review for the reader. I do not expect people who openly say that they do not care for reviews and have stayed away fo them for long years to valuate occasional reviews. But everyone likes reading someone who agrees with us or loves the equipment we own ...

There's also a question of interest, while I basically stopped reading typical gear reviews about 20 years ago I still like information on vintage speakers and turntables. I search and consume everything and anything I can for some of these products, the personalities behind some of these products are of equal if not more interest. Fortunately there are still a few that I admire and learn from even if I don't read their product reviews ,

david

 

[ddk]

David, I read Tim’s review of the LP 2.1 deluxe shortly after I decided to buy it. Now that I’ve lived with it for a while I have not gone back to re-read the review to know if my impression of that review has changed. I look forward to re-reading it at some point and seeing.

I think if a reviewer tells his reader that he had to move the speaker with the different amplifier that does tell me something interesting. And that is that the amplifier reacts to the speaker differently than the other amplifier did and it necessitated a relocation of the speaker because of the sound in the room. Perhaps that’s obvious to some people. But now the review is something different than just review about the two amplifiers. It’s about the two amplifiers and the speakers in that room all being adjusted to sound most pleasing to the reviewer. And that’s fine. I stopped reading most reviews a long time ago.

Can it not be that he simply has more insight into his setup and decided to make a change or that the speakers are on loan and he didn't spend the time needed for final positioning since it was a temporary arrangement? Or maybe the speakers were initially setup using a long forgotten discarded but cabling? It's fine if that information is important to you.

david

 

[microstrip]

(...) I think if a reviewer tells his reader that he had to move the speaker with the different amplifier that does tell me something interesting. And that is that the amplifier reacts to the speaker differently than the other amplifier did and it necessitated a relocation of the speaker because of the sound in the room. (...)

Yes, but what is the real interest of such fact? Probably the reason for it will be correlated to the RT60 of the room in the bass frequencies, something we do not know. IEC IEC-60268-13 defined recommendations for listening rooms to carry subjective evaluations but we do not expect reviewers to follow them. In another room speaker re-allocation would not probably be needed.

Measurements show that amplifiers can have damping factors going from 2 to 1000. Are we going to consider that amplifiers with lower damping should be avoided?

 

[tima]

I think if a reviewer tells his reader that he had to move the speaker with the different amplifier that does tell me something interesting. And that is that the amplifier reacts to the speaker differently than the other amplifier did and it necessitated a relocation of the speaker because of the sound in the room. Perhaps that’s obvious to some people. But now the review is something different than just review about the two amplifiers. It’s about the two amplifiers and the speakers in that room all being adjusted to sound most pleasing to the reviewer. And that’s fine.

I have not tried to work this all out ... but I see a co-dependencey between amp and speakers. If you choose or have but one of those, you've put a stake in the ground for choosing the other. (And you don't take on a mis-matched pair for a review.) An amp review by necessity is a review with a specific pair of speakers. As I asked earlier, what do you do when you bring an amp and speakers into your room. You set them up in a way you believe delivers on their potential - at least that is what I think a typical user will do. I don't think having an amplifier for review is cause to do something different than that.

Comparing a reference to a review amp is not two reviews. It is a compare and contrast. A review does not require a second amp. ( however most readers like a comparison and I include one when feasible.) If I wrote a straight amplifier review I might write a little bit about setup but I probably would spend very little time writing about speaker positioning - why? Because the review is about an amp and not about my room. In Marty's case, his account was about satisfying Marty and his expectations. A review for publication is not about satisfying me, it is about the sonic character of a piece of componentry from my perspective - expository is the right word here - in the context of my listening room.

 

[tima]

David, I read Tim’s review of the LP 2.1 deluxe shortly after I decided to buy it. Now that I’ve lived with it for a while I have not gone back to re-read the review to know if my impression of that review has changed. I look forward to re-reading it at some point and seeing.

And I and perhaps others look forward to hearing those impressions.

 

[Robh3606]

Hey Rob - it looks like you have plenty of spare time.

It certainly can take a while to configure optimal speaker position, though there may be no objective such thing. Nonetheless one can get reasonably satisfactory results with less labor - enough to gauge the basic character of the speaker or amp in a shorter time.

Your concerns don't really bother me for review writing purposes. My example was for reviewing an amplifier then a brief comparison with my reference amp. I already said I start with speakers in the same position as with my reference amp. In all liklihood speaker position will need to change very little if at all from what it is with my reference amp. Even so, all amp-speaker listening sessions occur in the same room. I'm hearing amp A with a set of speakers, then I'm hearing amp B with the same speakers - both listening sessions in the same room. As long as I describe what I'm doing or hearing I don't think readers get confused.

Well that's your call.

Rob

 

[stehno]

Can it not be that he simply has more insight into his setup and decided to make a change or that the speakers are on loan and he didn't spend the time needed for final positioning since it was a temporary arrangement?

As I recall the reviewer made no mention of such possibilities. Didn't the reviewer state that the amp caused the bass to improve hence, that is what caused him to reposition his speakers? If so, that seems extremely odd if not downright corny. For several reasons.

1. I've been rather fastedious about speaker placement since 2002 and with tremendous success IMO. Like many others, I've purchased or audtioned lots of gear and with many sonic improvements under my belt, well over 500 just in my current system. In all those events I can think of but 2 situations that ever caused me to even consider moving my speakers and that's when I'm switching rooms or in the early stages of fine-tuning my subwoofers and even then, rarely. No other situations have. And I've never heard of any others claiming to have inklings such as this reviewer. Now perhaps this reviewer's a bit deeper than me and this is a next step in progress that I'm unaware of, but I doubt it. To the contrary, when I do encounter a component that improves the bass or anything else, the only thing I'm looking for is more music.

2. In my dabbling with speaker placement in the attempts to achieve a superior bass, I've concluded that to achieve a superior bass, there must be some type of accoustic coupling that occurs between a speaker and the room. It's beyond my pay grade to prove an actual accoustic coupling occurs but it makes sense to me. One thing I do know as part of this so-called acoustic coupling is that there exists an acoustic noise-floor such that when a speaker is moved a fraction in any direction either more or less bass is audible and the audible bass is more or less defined. The fact that I have to physically move the speakers to cause this change should be proof that there's some type of acoustic coupling that occurs, right? Now any new component can also cause bass to change but that's electrical only and should have nothing whatsoever to do with a speaker's geography. IOW, at least in this reviewer's case I can't see any direct correlation between the electrical improvement causing one to alter the mechanical / acoustic side.

Or maybe the speakers were initially setup using a long forgotten discarded but cabling? It's fine if that information is important to you.

david

Ummmmm, sure. But in the middle of a review? The more I think about it, the more one word comes to mind. Misguided. Moreover, I suspect if he had any real savvy and knowing that many are unaware of such a practice, I'd guess that if he has such a brainfart, he'd be wise to keep it to himself. Better yet, if he's into performing due diligence, then swap back in the old amplifer at some point so that his referencing stands a better chance of being stable and then cover it all in his review.