Changing variables in a review

morricab

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That is why i like brick rooms for bass response.
Yes indeed. I don’t understand why someone adding on a dedicated room in the US would not make it from brick and/or cinder blocks...even if the rest of the house is wood frame. Far easier to get good bass in such a room. It’s not like those building materials are crazy expensive.
 
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morricab

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I'm looking at starting a thread focused on a room with very acoustics and speaker placement then going through an actual project modifying the character of the room with basic construction materials, I don't want to get bogged down on terminology mid thread, coupling doesn't work for me so I want to know what others mean when they use it in this context.

david
Don’t start with a crappy wood frame/sheet rock structure and you will already be on a good path for room acoustics. I have never had serious room issues in European concrete/brick constructions unless there was too much glass.
 

microstrip

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(...) as far as traveling through walls; you have to consider what it takes to establish room boundaries to focus the bass. in my case; 6 years after i built my room, i added a layer of Quietrock 545, plus a layer of 3/4" finish grade plywood on the front half of my room to attain a good leverage for effective bass hookup. i think it works well. the bass is physical and the room is lively.

Room boundaries to focus the bass? In acoustics we can have absorptive boundaries and reflective boundaries. The same elements can have different properties versus frequency. Usually the more difficult problem is reflection, that causes anti-phase waves that creates nulls.
 
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andromedaaudio

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Discussing these things is difficult as peoples perception on what is good bass will differ greatly .
Thats why reviews in general are of small importance afaic
I most certainly believe in good room / speaker coupling .
Enough membrane surface to fill/ exite the space completely and then some .
I d rather have a to big a speaker in a small room then vice versa.
Open spaces , L shaped living rooms :( very difficult
 
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K3RMIT

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I very much welcome you thoughts david
for me my new room will be a room ina room
it will be a pre fab crappy wood frame
now what o do inside I’m not sure yet.
was thinking a cement block inside tied to wood frame
but I am not qualified to know whats best.
 

microstrip

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That is why i like brick rooms for bass response.

Nice if you have a large space and can afford some kind of bass trapping. Small concrete spaces can be very hard to make sound good. Some of the best rooms are a room in a room - brick/concrete outer wal, drywall or similar internal wall. The gaps, mass and absorbent materials should be tuned to the desired room acoustics.
 

Al M.

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Discussing these things is difficult as people s perception on what is good bass will differ greatly .

Agreed. Even a single person's perception of what is good bass can change over the years. Mine did. I would probably now be in disagreement with my own self from 10 years ago.
 
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bonzo75

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Agreed. Even a single person's perception of what is good bass can change over the years. Mine did. I would probably now be in disagreement with my own self from 10 years ago.

I would too, even though I didn't know you ten years ago
 

Lagonda

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Nice if you have a large space and can afford some kind of bass trapping. Small concrete spaces can be very hard to make sound good. Some of the best rooms are a room in a room - brick/concrete outer wal, drywall or similar internal wall. The gaps, mass and absorbent materials should be tuned to the desired room acoustics.
If you start with a solid foundation, you can always "soften" up the sound with treatment. I like the diffusing property of raw brick wall as well. Worst sound i have had was a Swedish wood house with a suspended wood floor over a basement cut into boulder. Fantastic view , but shitty sound !
 
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kleinbje

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There are a few thoughts on this:

1) The amp designer is a cable “denier” and sees no point in aftermarket Power cords because What we hear it can’t be Measured.
2) Believes but doesn’t want jack up the price of his product with an aftermarket cord but still wants to deliver a functional product
3) Believes and doesn’t bother to include a rubbish cord expecting the high wonder to have his own favored cord.

I suspect most fall into camp 2 but a fair % will be camp 1. Not many products come without a cord.
Well known example Ypsilon VPS100, came sans power cable.
 

kleinbje

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Nonsensical. When reviewing the new amp you replace the previous amp on your stand/rack. That’s it. You don’t optimise the amp BY CHANGING THE SPEAKER POSITION.

Now. When setting up a cart of course you position it correctly setting the VTA VTF etc etc but you don’t then move the speaker ( or amp) to get the best of the cart do you? No. Coz that would be just silly right?

Oh and your dig at Peter re non stock POS power cable is weird. I’m embarrassed for you.
I am not following your logic. While I certainly don't believe in changing more than one variable at a time, I certainly see it differently. A reviewer has an amp(x) and speaker setup at the time the new amp(y) under audition arrives. This installation should be optimized. Someone posted on the premise that an amp can't change room acoustics, of course not, BUT an amp can change how the speaker interacts with the acoustic environment. Especially if said speaker has difficult to deal with characteristics like low impedances at frequently reproduced frequencies, as well as high phase angles. I have certainly swapped amps and preamps that altered my speakers interaction with my room at low frequencies. I have a small room 11.5*13.5*8 which may predispose me to the phenomenon. If I was running the show, the reviewer would swap x for y straight up and describe the sound. If nodes or resonances are excited, they should describe how they moved the speakers to even out the bass response in THEIR room. Then continue to OPTIMIZE the sound in their room, I want to know about each change and why it was made, but I want to hear about how they got said amp to perform best in their system. I also want to hear how said amp performed in a "real" room and in the best light as well. My two cents.
Jeff
 

ddk

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Don’t start with a crappy wood frame/sheet rock structure and you will already be on a good path for room acoustics. I have never had serious room issues in European concrete/brick constructions unless there was too much glass.
Wood frame? I wish :)! This room is the worst with shaky noisy metal studs and a thin layer of uninsulated sheetrock! I have another week before the room is done and I can take pictures but I think the different ways to navigate an impossible room like this one will be interesting to many.

david
 
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stehno

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... Someone posted on the premise that an amp can't change room acoustics, of course not, BUT an amp can change how the speaker interacts with the acoustic environment. ...
I realize the reviewer was specific about a particular amplifier but just a little reminder that every component, cable, and tweak has the potential of altering the bass.

Hence, if there was any validity to this reviewer's strategy or thought process, ought he not exhibit the same behavior with potentially every product he reviews and every time he encounters a change in his system, even perhaps every time a new product reaches full burn-in status?

I could be wrong but I find the whole concept rather odd.
 

microstrip

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(...) I d rather have a to big a speaker in a small room then vice versa. (...)
It depends on how small and how big and particularly on the room acoustics.
 

microstrip

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Wood frame? I wish :)! This room is the worst with shaky noisy metal studs and a thin layer of uninsulated sheetrock! I have another week before the room is done and I can take pictures but I think the different ways to navigate an impossible room like this one will be interesting to many.

david

Yes, IMHO in this hobby we must fight with it, not fight against it. There is such a diversity in stereo reproduction that with proper knowledge or guidance we will always be able to create an enjoyable system. I went through three listening rooms and will soon move again. All needed different systems to exploit the characteristics of the three very different spaces.
 
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Kingrex

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Wood frame? I wish :)! This room is the worst with shaky noisy metal studs and a thin layer of uninsulated sheetrock! I have another week before the room is done and I can take pictures but I think the different ways to navigate an impossible room like this one will be interesting to many.

david
I don't understand. Your one of the most experienced members on this forum. Why did a wall system get rock on it before it was structurally secured. Is it yours or a customer called you up after he was well into the project.

Either way, stripped 1/2" drywall and getting the framing correct is probably going to take your further than stacking layers of Quietrock.
 

ddk

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I don't understand. Your one of the most experienced members on this forum. Why did a wall system get rock on it before it was structurally secured. Is it yours or a customer called you up after he was well into the project.

Either way, stripped 1/2" drywall and getting the framing correct is probably going to take your further than stacking layers of Quietrock.
Good question Rex, this room wasn't a new construction this is how we found it, I picked this room specifically to see what can be done and help me build my setup knowledge. Having to deal with a less than ideal space is a real world scenario for a lot of audiophiles so better learn how to deal with it. With proper one can negate even the most horrible spaces like this particular room. You can ask @PeterA who spent a good number of hours in this room and that even a normal conversation was a disgusting experience in there, yet setting up a large horn speaker was quite doable without any room improvements when you know what you're doing. That's fine with a free standing speaker but you can't negate the room when dealing with a corner horn or anything that works with room boundaries then you might have to make physical changes to the space for this type of speaker and typical acoustic treatments aren't going to fix the problem.

david

PS- I don't like or recommend anything like Quietrock, IME it will always over dampen the room!
 
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racerxnet

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Good question Rex, this room wasn't a new construction this is how we found it, I picked this room specifically to see what can be done and help me build my setup knowledge. Having to deal with a less than ideal space is a real world scenario for a lot of audiophiles so better learn how to deal with it. With proper one can negate even the most horrible spaces like this particular room. You can ask @PeterA who spent a good number of hours in this room and that even a normal conversation was a disgusting experience in there, yet setting up a large horn speaker was quite doable without any room improvements when you know what you're doing. That's fine with a free standing speaker but you can't negate the room when dealing with a corner horn or anything that works with room boundaries then you might have to make physical changes to the space for this type of speaker and typical acoustic treatments aren't going to fix the problem.

david

PS- I don't like or recommend anything like Quietrock, IME it will always over dampen the room!
So how do you correlate any improvment to the room response if you are not using REW/Rephase, Accorate, Audiolense or Dirac?? Are you "tuning" by ear? I see that some recommend cinder block for constructing a room, except that may not be doable on a second floor in a normal home considering the load bearing and weight. You can properly decouple with clips and Green glue along with rockwool bats on the back side of sheet rock/studs. For mic centering you can use LSR2 before measurement. Do you look at the step response, room decay, phase, and other items.
 

kleinbje

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I realize the reviewer was specific about a particular amplifier but just a little reminder that every component, cable, and tweak has the potential of altering the bass.

Hence, if there was any validity to this reviewer's strategy or thought process, ought he not exhibit the same behavior with potentially every product he reviews and every time he encounters a change in his system, even perhaps every time a new product reaches full burn-in status?

I could be wrong but I find the whole concept rather odd.
You are correct there are a lot of moving parts. I agree I would like as much disclosure as possible. That's why a good review just gets you in the door. Until you hear it in your room, especially floor stander speakers, you just don't know exactly what you're getting.
 

Robh3606

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So how do you correlate any improvment to the room response if you are not using REW/Rephase, Accorate, Audiolense or Dirac?? Are you "tuning" by ear? I see that some recommend cinder block for constructing a room, except that may not be doable on a second floor in a normal home considering the load bearing and weight. You can properly decouple with clips and Green glue along with rockwool bats on the back side of sheet rock/studs. For mic centering you can use LSR2 before measurement. Do you look at the step response, room decay, phase, and other items.

You don't have to do that. You can get damn close by ear and then if you want to fine tune using a measurement system go for it.
All you need is a slow sine sweep and an SPL meter do give you a snapshot at the listening position. It also depends on what extent you are willing to use for "room correction" or just plain EQ which seems to be a dirty word for some.

I have tried DIRAC in my HT and it turned my spacious and enveloping HT into a flat non dimensional shadow of it's former self. This was a few years back and sure it has improved but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

Rob :)
 
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