Visit to Audiophile Bill to hear his horns project

[christoph]

I like the sound of my Odeon wooden horns very much as well...my DIY will probably end up with wooden horns in the end...

Where would you source a wooden horn?
Are there commercial products available in wood?

 

[bonzo75]

Where would you source a wooden horn?
Are there commercial products available in wood?

There are small manufacturers making JMLC, tractrix, and radial horns, such as clones of TAD radials, in wood. Markus klug and others are making wooden multicells. Bill is making tractrix as of now for his own but surely he can make JMLC.

Leif and team had tried wooden JMLC but went back to autotech.

I have also heard a high plastic sound in a concrete and plaster JMLC with BMS driver, so it is not imo as simple as a slam dunk on material. Wood horns have their own color. The correlation is tough to establish with material alone, leaving aside driver and crossover. Does tune audio Anima timbre sound good because it is a wood horn? Not sure. Universum and Pnoe sound awesome and are not wood. There are some that sound very plasticky. The BD oris BMS driver also has a plastic diaphragm

At Munich in 2019 they had papier mache horn as well as metal horn in the western electric room and it was great, and JC strongly recommended papier mache but there are bad sounding papier mache

Western electric some of the horns are in wood, some metal

 

[kodomo]

Just to add more, they type of wood and the thickness as well as finishing also have an effect. As I have been working on the new speakers I have built out of mdf, plywood and solid wood. Then I started trying different finishing materials.

I have clearly found out that the finishing has much less effect when there is enough thickness. There is still a sound signature between types of wood but it lessens with thickness. Still mdf and solid wood sounds different enough. I ended up making the horns quite thick, with solid wood and quite a bit of layers of instrument grade finishing.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Just to add more, they type of wood and the thickness as well as finishing also have an effect. As I have been working on the new speakers I have built out of mdf, plywood and solid wood. Then I started trying different finishing materials.

I have clearly found out that the finishing has much less effect when there is enough thickness. There is still a sound signature between types of wood but it lessens with thickness. Still mdf and solid wood sounds different enough. I ended up making the horns quite thick, with solid wood and quite a bit of layers of instrument grade finishing.

Sounds great, Sami. There is mixed opinion in the school of thought on wall thickness too. I also opted for thick wall like you (and others such as Romy) but there are proponents for thin walls. I was studying the web on the BBC cabinet philosophy with thin wall, thick wall etc. Quite interesting.

 

[christoph]

There are small manufacturers making JMLC, tractrix, and radial horns, such as clones of TAD radials, in wood. Markus klug and others are making wooden multicells. Bill is making tractrix as of now for his own but surely he can make JMLC.

Thanks for the informations

Leif and team had tried wooden JMLC but went back to autotech.

When I knock on my mid horns on the Unis, they sound quite inert but not dead, maybe that is the reason...

I have also heard a high plastic sound in a concrete and plaster JMLC with BMS driver, so it is not imo as simple as a slam dunk on material. Wood horns have their own color. The correlation is tough to establish with material alone, leaving aside driver and crossover. Does tune audio Anima timbre sound good because it is a wood horn? Not sure. Universum and Pnoe sound awesome and are not wood. There are some that sound very plasticky. The BD oris BMS driver also has a plastic diaphragm

Interesting because the Pnoe horn is rather thin walled.
By far not as wobbly and flimsy as the Avantgarde horns but still...

At Munich in 2019 they had papier mache horn as well as metal horn in the western electric room and it was great, and JC strongly recommended papier mache but there are bad sounding papier mache
Western electric some of the horns are in wood, some metal

So it is all a matter of combining and execution

 

[Audiophile Bill]

There are small manufacturers making JMLC, tractrix, and radial horns, such as clones of TAD radials, in wood. Markus klug and others are making wooden multicells. Bill is making tractrix as of now for his own but surely he can make JMLC.

Leif and team had tried wooden JMLC but went back to autotech.

I have also heard a high plastic sound in a concrete and plaster JMLC with BMS driver, so it is not imo as simple as a slam dunk on material. Wood horns have their own color. The correlation is tough to establish with material alone, leaving aside driver and crossover. Does tune audio Anima timbre sound good because it is a wood horn? Not sure. Universum and Pnoe sound awesome and are not wood. There are some that sound very plasticky. The BD oris BMS driver also has a plastic diaphragm

At Munich in 2019 they had papier mache horn as well as metal horn in the western electric room and it was great, and JC strongly recommended papier mache but there are bad sounding papier mache

Western electric some of the horns are in wood, some metal

Hi Ked,

Yes I can make many geometries now including spherical, KG, JMLC, conical, tractrix etc.

Leif is about to go back to wood btw - I don’t want to steal his thunder so when he is up and running with the new one, we will learn some more I guess.

Pnoe and Universum are both good examples of speakers that sound good (if not great) BUT not because of the plastic horn - that is their weak point and it is easily discernible on videos or in the flesh. Yes one adjusts their ears to the plastic but it is what it is. Making a Pnoe in wood would be incredible albeit very expensive. Closest I have seen to a Pnoe in wood would be the horns made by the incredibly talented John Inlow. His massive front loaded reimagined 15a spherical is insane but around 1500lbs in weight and not practical for production hence the fibreglass.

The metal WE horns are very often damped with bitumen as are the Goto horns to reduce the metallic resonance. Everyone is a acutely aware of the metallic ring of the 16a it is well discussed on the web. Some like it and some try to get rid. The papier-mâché WE horns were actually reserved for their back up and to increase ease of manufacture and dissemination.

BMS compression drivers have a plastic diaphragm hence their slightly plastic sound. Again this is well reported elsewhere and one of the reasons I moved on from them.

Plastic is not an optimal choice for such devices - it is a matter of manufacturing convenience only.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bill, it was interesting to correlate the actual sound of your horns versus what the first visual impression suggested I would hear.

So, the promise of eye candy solid wood horns, way in excess of anything Ares Cerat or Tune Audio are providing, was fully borne out as a really full blooded, tone saturated sound in the all-important mids region. Way beyond any horns, or any other spkr, I'd demoed before.

Where expectations were somewhat flipped on their head was expecting trouser flapping bass from your 4x 15" woofers per side, instead getting a really subtle and integrated deep bass response, organically flowing rather full-on visceral.

Remember, my tt designer also utilises loaded pairs of 15" woofers in OB arrangement in his custom spkrs, and his deep bass is the very definition of "sledgehammer".

 

[bonzo75]

Some prefer the WE 16a to the wooden 15a, some the other way.

Yes papier mache WE was used to outsource and increase production, but it was great and JC strongly recommended it.

All I am saying is that these various materials have their own colors, and it is the final voicing.. The designer has to balance the voicing with horn material, driver, and crossover.

 

[bonzo75]

Leif's wood is a different design now, they are trying a constant directivity design great if it works because then doesn't need a tweeter. Two way. The TAD clones are also CD and wood but they preferred the autotech jmlc to that. So again, it is a combination and execution

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Some prefer the WE 16a to the wooden 15a, some the other way.

Yes papier mache WE was used to outsource and increase production, but it was great and JC strongly recommended it.

All I am saying is that these various materials have their own colors, and it is the final voicing.. The designer has to balance the voicing with horn material, driver, and crossover.

Yes all materials have their own colour as I have written above. But plastic isn’t a colour that you want in a system because it doesn’t sound natural or realistic.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Leif's wood is a different design now, they are trying a constant directivity design great if it works because then doesn't need a tweeter. Two way. The TAD clones are also CD and wood but they preferred the autotech jmlc to that. So again, it is a combination and execution

This isn’t correct. Did Leif have a wood JMLC - no. So you are conflating two independent concepts - one being geometry (very critical) and other being substrate (very critical).

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Leif's wood is a different design now, they are trying a constant directivity design great if it works because then doesn't need a tweeter. Two way. The TAD clones are also CD and wood but they preferred the autotech jmlc to that. So again, it is a combination and execution

I agree combination of driver and horn geometry is critical - there isn’t any question and this is well understood by anyone in this area.

We are discussing comparing the same driver AND horn geometry in a horn built of different substrates.

There is no plastic horn that I have heard that doesn’t sound of plastic. It doesn’t matter whether it was a TAD or a Lowther or an AER or a BMS. The so called pairing or execution is key for driver and optimal geometry yes for certain.

To repeat myself again - there is no audio quality situation where one would preferentially use a plastic horn. Only manufacturing simplicity and costs. The reason acoustic instruments aren’t made of plastic is well known - it sounds of plastic / horrid. If one believes that all material choices however deployed have a sound then you’ll realise that the sonic profile of plastic isn’t desirable.

 

[bonzo75]

This isn’t correct. Did Leif have a wood JMLC - no. So you are conflating two independent concepts - one being geometry (very critical) and other being substrate (very critical).

I pointed out when you said Leif is going back to wood, he is going to a different geometry. They tried 76 cm wooden iwata. And TAD clones they have experience with. They ended up with autotech.

My point is this is all a combination. It is unfair to put down universum or pnoe as inferior, based on not being wood. They are brilliant horns.

 

[christoph]

Leif's wood is a different design now, they are trying a constant directivity design great if it works because then doesn't need a tweeter. Two way.

Two-Way without compromise would be awesome.
But is that feasible at all?

 

[christoph]

There is no plastic horn that I have heard that doesn’t sound of plastic.

What about the Uni JMLC?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I pointed out when you said Leif is going back to wood, he is going to a different geometry. They tried 76 cm wooden iwata. And TAD clones they have experience with. They ended up with autotech.

My point is this is all a combination. It is unfair to put down universum or pnoe as inferior, based on not being wood. They are brilliant horns.

You are misquoting and ignoring plain facts to suit your arguments.

>> You can’t compare across geometries like this. This is wrong!! You can compare a Plastic Iwata with a wood one or a wood jmlc like Sierra and a plastic one. That is fine. Don’t conflate.

>> In terms of Pnoe and Universum - the words I used was “good if not great” - so again don’t misquote me please Kedar. It isn’t cool or good manners. What I said which you can’t seem to understand it that plastic isn’t a good choice in any situation other than CHEAP and rapid production.

 

[bonzo75]

What about the Uni JMLC?

He hasn't heard it in person, just my videos. Tbh uni has one of the best mids and highs I know, I wouldn't change it one bit, to make an even better horn, add a dual woofer FLH with bass horns.

Is there a plastic sound when I hear or the first time each time? Yes for the first ten minutes or so before I settle down, but then wood horns have a wood color that I can hear as well.

 

[bonzo75]

You are misquoting and ignoring plain facts to suit your arguments.

>> You can’t compare across geometries like this. This is wrong!! You can compare a Plastic Iwata with a wood one or a wood jmlc like Sierra and a plastic one. That is fine. Don’t conflate.

>> In terms of Pnoe and Universum - the words I used was “good if not great” - so again don’t misquote me please Kedar. It isn’t cool or good manners. What I said which you can’t seem to understand it that plastic isn’t a good choice in any situation other than CHEAP and rapid production.

Sorry I am not misquoting or so. You seem to be angry that I am not accepting wood is universally superior to non wood. I don't. I am not denying heard plastic sound in Oris but that is not data point enough to say wood is better. There are many poor wood horns as well. It is a combination.

 

[bonzo75]

You are misquoting and ignoring plain facts to suit your arguments.

>> You can’t compare across geometries like this. This is wrong!! You can compare a Plastic Iwata with a wood one or a wood jmlc like Sierra and a plastic one. That is fine. Don’t conflate.

>> In terms of Pnoe and Universum - the words I used was “good if not great” - so again don’t misquote me please Kedar. It isn’t cool or good manners. What I said which you can’t seem to understand it that plastic isn’t a good choice in any situation other than CHEAP and rapid production.

Bill, good if not great is putting them down subtly. If uni is not great it is because of a lack of bass horn, and lower half, not because of the autotech jmlc, which part is fantastic

 

[christoph]

Tbh uni has one of the best mids and highs I know, I wouldn't change it one bit, to make an even better horn, add a dual woofer FLH with bass horns.

The problem is that the dual woofer FLH with bass horns would have to play up to 350hz to cross over to the Uni's mid JMLC horn