SAT Direct Drive Turntable!

[PeterA]

We have different information - there was plenty of information on this subject some years ago. See for example - https://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/03/swedish-analog-technologies-sme-302.html .

I have listened to the SAT and the top Graham in a friend system that owns tapes - a Studer 820 and Telefunken M15. Same cartridge , same turntable, as Ked likes and wants to do. They sound completely different, I would say it was a different LP being played! So I report what is my opinion - the SAT enhances the sound, the Graham sounded more like the tape or top digital. Surely IMHO, YMMV.

Fransisco, all that link to the monoandstereo shows is that Marc Gomez was developing arm boards for various turntables to support his arm. In this case it was the SME30. It also states that they were working on one for the Kronos. I do not see any endorsement for one particular turntable matching well with the SAT over any other turntable. I don't understand the point you are trying to make with that link.

That is an interesting comment you make about the SAT enhancing the sound of the LP and the Graham arm sounding more like the tape or top digital. It is particularly interesting in light of Fremer's strongly held position that the 9" SAT sounds better than the 12". I presume he thinks it is lower in distortion than is the 12" and would therefore "enhance" the sound less.

This seems just another example of how experienced people can have very different opinions about the sound of components.

 

[microstrip]

Fransisco, all that link to the monoandstereo shows is that Marc Gomez was developing arm boards for various turntables to support his arm. In this case it was the SME30. It also states that they were working on one for the Kronos. I do not see any endorsement for one particular turntable matching well with the SAT over any other turntable. I don't understand the point you are trying to make with that link.

That is an interesting comment you make about the SAT enhancing the sound of the LP and the Graham arm sounding more like the tape or top digital. It is particularly interesting in light of Fremer's strongly held position that the 9" SAT sounds better than the 12". I presume he thinks it is lower in distortion than is the 12" and would therefore "enhance" the sound less.

This seems just another example of how experienced people can have very different opinions about the sound of components.

I mainly gave the link to locate approximately the time of the endorsement, nothing else. It only shows that interest in the SME30 was enough to persuade Gomez to model the SME30 in CAD and show it in Monoandstereo. People are mature enough to see it, No way anyone said it was better or over than others, just that it as a very good match. Unfortunately most WBF audiophiles find a need to rank any appreciation or gear, any comment or thread suffers from it.

 

[Tango]

This seems just another example of how experienced people can have very different opinions about the sound of components.

You said it very well Peter. There is always a case where a hearing contradicts most other experiences. I don't doubt what Micro heard. In fact I think he is fortunate to hear as he heard. That could save him a lot of money.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Folsom]

No, if the rest of the turntable is up to scratch the motor brings certain qualities that mostly affect pitch clarity which is very important for getting closer to a natural sound. The nature of the sound of a turntable and how much information is retrieved from the grooves, tone, timbre, etc. and naturalness come from other decisions one makes, because of that these two turntables will be very different sounding in their essence.

david

Does the AS2000 use 2 channel amp to help with that?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Belt-drive versus direct-drive is another one of our numerous “religious” arguments. The theory is endlessly interesting, but largely irrelevant when it comes down to practice.

With regard to the sound that reaches our ears I believe that implementation trumps theory. This is why belt-drive turntables can sound great; direct-drive turntables can sound great; rim-drive turntables can sound great, etc.

 

[tima]

Belt-drive versus direct-drive is another one of our numerous “religious” arguments. The theory is endlessly interesting, but largely irrelevant when it comes down to practice.

With regard to the sound that reaches our ears I believe that implementation trumps theory. This is why belt-drive turntables can sound great; direct-drive turntables can sound great; rim-drive turntables can sound great, etc.

Are there criteria for greatness? Is low noise a religion? Is stable accuracy a religion?

 

[bonzo75]

Belt-drive versus direct-drive is another one of our numerous “religious” arguments. The theory is endlessly interesting, but largely irrelevant when it comes down to practice.

With regard to the sound that reaches our ears I believe that implementation trumps theory. This is why belt-drive turntables can sound great; direct-drive turntables can sound great; rim-drive turntables can sound great, etc.

The number of direct drives at both the top price level and the lower price level is less. So if one puts in some effort they can know if DDs are for them or not. Same with idlers. But there are just too many belts with too much variance. In fact with DDs it becomes tougher to investigate only if you go into rare exotica and vintage, but still the landscape is nowhere as vast as belts

 

[tima]

The number of direct drives at both the top price level and the lower price level is less. So if one puts in some effort they can know if DDs are for them or not. Same with idlers. But there are just too many belts with too much variance. In fact with DDs it becomes tougher to investigate only if you go into rare exotica and vintage, but still the landscape is nowhere as vast as belts

There was a time in the late 60's, 70's and early 80's when direct drive tables from Japan were in their heyday. New "quartz-locked technology" was the rage for a while, at least in low and mid-priced lanes. They were quick to start and stop. Technics, Denon, remember the Sansui SR838, etc. Eventually ascriptions of motor noise and cogging turned the, er, tables. The Linn LP12, Thorens idlers and belts, Garrard idlers and belts, many many more. "The belt decouples the motor from the platter" became a mantra. Few high-end direct drives, what - Goldmund, Micro-Seiki, Rockport (circa 2000?), etc. sure but high price and a time of digital 'ascendency'. It seems like the 'come-back' of direct drive in the 21st C. is tied to newer technologies: motors and resonance/vibration control. Today if want belt outside uber-price it seems you go restoration/vintage. I'm probably missing some exceptions and the perspective is limited, but off the top...

 

[TLi]

There is no price yet for Marc Gomez SAT direct drive turntable. It is bundle with its custom made SAT tonearm. Only existing SAT arm users can made special request to buy turntable only.

My guess is the turntable will not be cheaper than the tonearm, so we are expecting double the price of SAT arm for the package which is fairly expensive.

 

[XV-1]

There is no price yet for Marc Gomez SAT direct drive turntable. It is bundle with its custom made SAT tonearm. Only existing SAT arm users can made special request to buy turntable only.

My guess is the turntable will not be cheaper than the tonearm, so we are expecting double the price of SAT arm for the package which is fairly expensive.

LOL. He really is following the Technics lead and bundling the tonearm with the table, whether you like it of not

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Is low noise a religion? Is stable accuracy a religion?

I would say “no,” because all turntables, within their design topologies, strive to minimize noise and to maximize speed accuracy.

 

[microstrip]

You said it very well Peter. There is always a case where a hearing contradicts most other experiences. I don't doubt what Micro heard. In fact I think he is fortunate to hear as he heard. That could save him a lot of money.

Kind regards,
Tang

No dear Tang, I am not discarding the subwoofers ... Unfortunately my preferences are not saving me any money ...
And yes, fortunately I hear by myself , thanks for your trust, but I can't understand who I was contradicting... Was anyone comparing Graham´s with SAT's?

 

[bonzo75]

And yes, fortunately I hear by myself

Ok, that explains a lot!

Next time you need help, just holler, and get some Portuguese food ready

 

[PeterA]

LOL. He really is following the Technics lead and bundling the tonearm with the table, whether you like it of not

This seems fairly close to the development model SME used. Their tables are bundled too, but I think you could buy them without arms. I think few people did. Only later were people discovering that they preferred the Graham or SAT arms on SME tables. There are a few other exceptions with other arms.

 

[microstrip]

I would say “no,” because all turntables, within their design topologies, strive to minimize noise and to maximize speed accuracy.

Your sentence looks like a political comment. And besides IMHO it is not completely true. For example, some designers choose the oil of the bearing for a certain drag, not for minimum noise. And most turntable belts are adjusted for best sound quality, not to maximize speed accuracy.

I think we are focusing too much on the drive and noise, forgetting that what makes the big difference is the way designers deal with the energy created by the mechanical process of reading the LP with a stylus.

 

[PeterA]

No dear Tang, I am not discarding the subwoofers ... Unfortunately my preferences are not saving me any money ...
And yes, fortunately I hear by myself , thanks for your trust, but I can't understand who I was contradicting... Was anyone comparing Graham´s with SAT's?

It was I who wrote it was interesting that you found the Graham more "like" tape than the SAT arm, especially given Fremer's high praise for the 9" SAT. I must presume that he does not think the SAT "adds" much or anything to the sound relative to other arms. This prompted my comment about how people with experience - you and Fremer - can have such different subjective opinions about the sound of an audio component.

 

[microstrip]

There is no price yet for Marc Gomez SAT direct drive turntable. It is bundle with its custom made SAT tonearm. Only existing SAT arm users can made special request to buy turntable only.

My guess is the turntable will not be cheaper than the tonearm, so we are expecting double the price of SAT arm for the package which is fairly expensive.

It looks natural. I think we can see know that Gomez built a turntable to complement his very special tonearm and does not seem to be interested in feeding the comparison lobby that is imagining how the SME3012R sounds in the SAT ...

 

[PeterA]

We have different information - there was plenty of information on this subject some years ago. See for example - https://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/03/swedish-analog-technologies-sme-302.html .

I have listened to the SAT and the top Graham in a friend system that owns tapes - a Studer 820 and Telefunken M15. Same cartridge , same turntable, as Ked likes and wants to do. They sound completely different, I would say it was a different LP being played! So I report what is my opinion - the SAT enhances the sound, the Graham sounded more like the tape or top digital. Surely IMHO, YMMV.

Fransisco, since this is a thread about SAT, specifically about the new SAT table that will be sold bundled with the SAT arm, could you expand upon your comment that you found the SAT arm to "enhance the sound"? What do you mean exactly by that comment?

 

[microstrip]

It was I who wrote it was interesting that you found the Graham more "like" tape than the SAT arm, especially given Fremer's high praise for the 9" SAT. I must presume that he does not think the SAT "adds" much or anything to the sound relative to other arms. This prompted my comment about how people with experience - you and Fremer - can have such different subjective opinions about the sound of an audio component.

Peter,

Well, I reported my opinion on listening in a system people can't imagine, using a particular recording ... I can't imagine how people can figure that my opinion contradicts Fremer!

Do you realize that most vinyl lovers writing in this thread have several tonearms and cartridges, choosing them according to the recording, do not care to compare with tape and some prefer the sound of their vinyl to tape? IMHO hi-end vinyl is mostly a matter of preference, not of accuracy.

BTW, we should praise Fremer for his fairness and good will when writing about SAT - when he wrote about the SATs he shared hi-rez recordings of the output of these tonearms in is site. https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...ickup-arm-and-compare-it-new-lm-09-and-cf1-09

 

[bonzo75]

Peter,

Well, I reported my opinion on listening in a system people can't imagine, using a particular recording ... I can't imagine how people can figure that my opinion contradicts Fremer!

Do you realize that most vinyl lovers writing in this thread have several tonearms and cartridges, choosing them according to the recording, do not care to compare with tape and some prefer the sound of their vinyl to tape? IMHO hi-end vinyl is mostly a matter of preference, not of accuracy.

BTW, we should praise Fremer for his fairness and good will when writing about SAT - when he wrote about the SATs he shared hi-rez recordings of the output of these tonearms in is site. https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...ickup-arm-and-compare-it-new-lm-09-and-cf1-09

I agree with the last para of Fremer