And then there were three...

[PeterA]

You mean if someone cooks five different dishes for me to try and I pick to like one is an act of persuasion?

David didn’t say a word to describe sound or play with my head to hear things. We are talking more than a hundred thousand dollars worth of equipments here that I put aside. I don’t think anyone in the right mind would let a person persuade to quit using without hearing and deciding himself.

Hypnotize maybe . Christian was hypnotized to loose his expensive Hezan table too.

Kind regards,
Tang

Tang, That is a very interesting sentence. Since this thread seems to be about sub integration, sub controls, and overall system satisfaction/performance, I'm curious about the order in which David approached the installation of your AS2000. At what point did he suggest you turn off your subs? Did he actually suggest it, or was it your idea alone upon hearing your new turntable in your system? Did he listen to your system before the installation of the new turntable and arm, or did he install the table and arm and then listen and suggest disconnecting the subs? You had lived with the subs for a while and did not notice an issue. Are you saying that David did not have any persuasive comment and "didn't say a word to describe sound or play with (your) head to hear things" when it came to the decision to disconnect your subs?

My audio buddies all have more experience than I do in this hobby. I am usually curious to know their opinions about the sound of my system after some change. They are candid and tell me what they hear. Their powers of persuasion vary, though I always appreciate hearing what they have to say.

When Jim Smith came to voice my system to my room, he spent the first evening simply listening and understanding the sound of my system and my room. He then made two suggestions for changes before he would begin the serious work the next day: dampen the ringing from the upright piano in the corner of the room, and raise the listening seat 3-4 inches. I had not noticed those issues before. My experience and imagination were even more limited at that time. I found Jim to be very persuasive because he has a great deal of both experience and knowledge in this hobby, he is deliberate in his approach, and he has a long track record of helping people. David seems the same way.

 

[KeithR]

Thanks for all your input guys, I guess the one thing I really took away is to reinvestigate Zu positioning, and that Mike L wouldn't have bought large abs full range spkrs without deep bass adjustability.

fwiw, Sean Casey personally set up my Zus in a large room like yours in less than an hour (including active bass). He said I might want to adjust bass level and that's it. One of the design goals with Definition was to make this easy and to work in many rooms with ease.

 

[spiritofmusic]

That's good to know Keith, I'm only a few (thousand) hours late by that reckoning.

 

[DaveyF]

I’ve trialled a few subs over the last few years, I had a Wilson Benesch Torus sub at home for a few months when I had the Animas on loan and did try it extensively with my 20.7 Maggies while I had it here as well. A mate also had 20.7s and he had a pair of Torus... or is that Torii?? In the end while the presentation with subs was initially exciting I always just preferred the music with the 20.7s sans subs.

When I originally had 3.7 Maggies I was always aware of only marginally satisfying the bass threshold and rode that edge between having enough bass extension and not and even then tried Rel subs but thankfully the 20.7s were released and that was my perfect out... it gave me comfortably low 23khz and I was able to keep the panels pure without going cone hybrid with subs... coherency is a real issue for me and not something I’ll trade much on.

With the Harbeth 30.1s that I bought as a second system I ran up against much the same issue as when I had the 3.7 Maggies, mostly very happy but also I’d just be aware that there was at times just not quite enough authority going on down low so then I tried a Genelec sub with them which was eq’d for the room. Once again ultimately rather than add subs I then instead upgraded to the Harbeth 40.2s and so now bottom end is just no longer an issue.

I love the balance of both the 20.7s and the 40.2s and have just accepted that the trade offs with additional crossover complexity are just not in my listening happy place. A mate has a great OMA horn with sub setup and so I did get that it is all possible but amp type and positioning are clearly critical so I have tried patiently to get a fair trial for subs but each time while I could get good sound the good music experience was always less for me... but that is just about listening preferences much the same way as some love horns or panels or boxes or tubes or SS or analogue or digital.

There is an excellent article on the REL 212/SE's in the current Absolute Sound by Don Saltzman. Don utilizes the same speakers as you in his system...the Maggie 20.7's. In the article Don mentions some of the same issues that you had with matching other subs up with the very fast Maggie's. If you get a chance, you might want to read how Don managed to get a pair of the REL's to work exceptionally well with the 20.7's.

 

[asiufy]

My thread was genuinely posted as a way to discuss the challenges inherent in getting speakers that truly reproduce deep bass (anything under 30Hz, even sub 20Hz) to work in rooms, where said speakers don't have full adjustability.

In other words, does the lucky new owner of a shiny pr of Rockport Arrakis simply rely on positioning in the listening room to get that "just so" outcome, augmented by serious acoustical treatments?

Yes. That's why it's important to get the right speaker for the room, otherwise room treatment will be mandatory, and not just "nice to have". There's only so much positioning will do if the speaker is too big/too small for a given environment.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Shakti - how much does the Uni roll off bass below 60hz? Or put another way, how many dB is it down at 50hz, 40hz and 30hz? Just trying to understand how full range (or not) it is.

 

[Tango]

Tang, That is a very interesting sentence. Since this thread seems to be about sub integration, sub controls, and overall system satisfaction/performance, I'm curious about the order in which David approached the installation of your AS2000. At what point did he suggest you turn off your subs? Did he actually suggest it, or was it your idea alone upon hearing your new turntable in your system? Did he listen to your system before the installation of the new turntable and arm, or did he install the table and arm and then listen and suggest disconnecting the subs? You had lived with the subs for a while and did not notice an issue. Are you saying that David did not have any persuasive comment and "didn't say a word to describe sound or play with (your) head to hear things" when it came to the decision to disconnect your subs?

My audio buddies all have more experience than I do in this hobby. I am usually curious to know their opinions about the sound of my system after some change. They are candid and tell me what they hear. Their powers of persuasion vary, though I always appreciate hearing what they have to say.

When Jim Smith came to voice my system to my room, he spent the first evening simply listening and understanding the sound of my system and my room. He then made two suggestions for changes before he would begin the serious work the next day: dampen the ringing from the upright piano in the corner of the room, and raise the listening seat 3-4 inches. I had not noticed those issues before. My experience and imagination were even more limited at that time. I found Jim to be very persuasive because he has a great deal of both experience and knowledge in this hobby, he is deliberate in his approach, and he has a long track record of helping people. David seems the same way.

Hi Peter,

Really there wasn’t much to it. It is my intention to hear the AS2000 as the maker designed it to be heard. So I just opened myself to learn from David. He did not persuade me to try this and that. He just asked me if I wanted him to work on my system too. I said please. Can I do this? Can I do that? I said ok. In fact, when he took my Schnerzinger devices off while I was in the meeting, he didn’t even ask me before. He just did...haha. So no persuasion. In my head I was thinking I could bring my system back exactly where it was if he suck my system.

I don’t remember if David turned my subs (backloaded bass horns) off before or after he set up the two 3012R’s for me. But He did not listen to my system before the AS2000 was setup. All his listening was done with the AS. On forum you read David’s comments, you will think he is a bass guy on face value. Ask him what’s good about 3012R. “Bass” he said. Bass this. Natural that. His vocabs on sound are limited to “natural” and “bass.” So I wasn’t really surprise he checked out my bass first. Have I ever turned off my subs, played with my xover point, adjusting gain, phase? Of course I have done all that “before” the AS and Kuro cables arrived. But The trade off was too big for me to accept then. At the moment I admit l lose some sense of boundary but I get this super clarity, definition and the kind of air that fuse my room to the recording venue. I can happily live with this trade off. I also question my hearing all the time to be sure my ears are listening not my brain. I did many a/b’s, sub no sub, after David was left. I am not throwing my subs away for sure. These subs are just too much for my room and I can’t get their bass to stay low to not plague other frequencies. When I have my dedicated listening room I will definitely use these subs. Right now I am living with my room limitations. I know for sure if I can move my speakers more away from the front wall, my sound will be even better. But I can’t. The left speaker will block my room entrance. Nonetheless, It is good to know that my system has even more potential.

David showed me many surprises. He also found quite a few things in my system that surprised him. The GammaII, the Ayon amps, the EMT Phono, the AtlasSL and the Opus1.

Kind regards,
Tang






The first day, David listened to my system through the AtlasSL/Axiom, GFS/3012R and Opus/SAT which were already installed on the AS before he arrived. He was surprised by the AtlasSL that caught his ears. The Opus he liked the least. I told him I would change his mind on the Opus and I managed to do that in the end. Since David is the 3012R guy, I asked him to

 

[MadFloyd]

I enjoyed that post, Tang. Thanks for sharing.

 

[PeterA]

Thank you Tang.

 

[DaveyF]

Yes. That's why it's important to get the right speaker for the room, otherwise room treatment will be mandatory, and not just "nice to have". There's only so much positioning will do if the speaker is too big/too small for a given environment.

+1

Plus, I would go one further, it doesn’t make any difference how much room treatment you add IF the speaker is too big/too small for a given environment, you are still only getting a compromised reproduction. Much better to get the speaker size right for the room in the first place. Although, we had this discussion on the forum a while back, and some people believed it was fine to shoe horn a huge speaker into a small space, that has always resulted in a recipe for diminished SQ, IME. Others apparently differ??

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Davey, I have a pretty interesting space, 18' wide, 38' deep (48' to incl half width alcove), approx 800 sq ft.

I can install spkrs anywhere up to 8' from front walls, and at present my Zus are 8' apart, 4' from each side wall.

Only my descending eaves are a limiting factor, precluding anything higher than 5.5'.

Volume 5500 cub ft.

This kind of space could easily accommodate any of the moderate height leading edge contenders like Rockport Altair, Vivid Giya G1, Magico M3, EA MM3 etc.

Just not Rockport Arrakis or EA MM7 etc.

What dynamic/cones based spkr would you think about for this space? As I say, Apogees or Trios w BassHorns may loom onto my horizon.

 

[the sound of Tao]

There is an excellent article on the REL 212/SE's in the current Absolute Sound by Don Saltzman. Don utilizes the same speakers as you in his system...the Maggie 20.7's. In the article Don mentions some of the same issues that you had with matching other subs up with the very fast Maggie's. If you get a chance, you might want to read how Don managed to get a pair of the REL's to work exceptionally well with the 20.7's.

Thanks Davey, I will check that out. I admit I did toy with one last great sub experiment with the idea of seeing if I could get in the bass/mid panels of the 30.7s to supplement my existing 20.7s as a ribbon sub... something of a personal homage to the tympani. Then a rare moment of audio wisdom and audio restraint took place and remembered that I am actually happy with the way that system is.

Instead I am putting my focus (and attached discretionary spending) into trying out my ideal speaker trifecta by putting together a horn system (being rather inspired by Christoph’s lovely panel and horn collection). I fear my absolute stoopidity knows few bounds lol but will endeavour to find out for sure.

 

[NorthStar]

Well Davey, I have a pretty interesting space, 18' wide, 38' deep (48' to incl half width alcove), approx 800 sq ft.

I can install spkrs anywhere up to 8' from front walls, and at present my Zus are 8' apart, 4' from each side wall.

Only my descending eaves are a limiting factor, precluding anything higher than 5.5'.

Volume 5500 cub ft.

This kind of space could easily accommodate any of the moderate height leading edge contenders like Rockport Altair, Vivid Giya G1, Magico M3, EA MM3 etc.

Just not Rockport Arrakis or EA MM7 etc.

What dynamic/cones based spkr would you think about for this space? As I say, Apogees or Trios w BassHorns may loom onto my horizon.

Or ...
• http://seatonsound.net/
• http://seatonsound.net/product/submersivehp/

 

[microstrip]

Hi Peter,

Really there wasn’t much to it. It is my intention to hear the AS2000 as the maker designed it to be heard. So I just opened myself to learn from David. He did not persuade me to try this and that. He just asked me if I wanted him to work on my system too. I said please. Can I do this? Can I do that? I said ok. In fact, when he took my Schnerzinger devices off while I was in the meeting, he didn’t even ask me before. He just did...haha. So no persuasion. In my head I was thinking I could bring my system back exactly where it was if he suck my system.
(...)

Dear Tang,

Again I am happy to see we are just debating semantics due to different ways of living this hobby and perhaps interpretation of words. And able to see that we agree on the important aspects. The behavior you describe is what I call being persuasive in this hobby - being able to persuade others to try different or new things that go against our past beliefs.

Remember that many people consider me an optimist in this forum - most of the time I look for the positive aspects in this hobby and try to understand the designer and owner intentions.

Anyway I think that the important aspect in this thread is not how many people turned the subs off - it is finding a pattern that will allow us to see why in some systems people preferred the system without them. Was because of main speakers, amplifiers, type of source, room size or musical preference?

 

[ddk]

Dear Tang,

Again I am happy to see we are just debating semantics due to different ways of living this hobby and perhaps interpretation of words. And able to see that we agree on the important aspects. The behavior you describe is what I call being persuasive in this hobby - being able to persuade others to try different or new things that go against our past beliefs.

Remember that many people consider me an optimist in this forum - most of the time I look for the positive aspects in this hobby and try to understand the designer and owner intentions.

Anyway I think that the important aspect in this thread is not how many people turned the subs off - it is finding a pattern that will allow us to see why in some systems people preferred the system without them. Was because of main speakers, amplifiers, type of source, room size or musical preference?

You have it wrong Francisco, I don't have an elaborate plan to disconnect the subs of the world or create a shortage in the SME 3012 global market, it's simply friendship. You meet people you like and find something in common to do together, in our cases its high end audio and music so we played around with his system. As a professional my job was to get the turntable optimized the rest of it is only for fun. We've had a few conversations too and you ended buying things because you were convinced or heard something you liked not because you were persuaded against your will . This is the beauty of WBF, friendships; and a little bickering now and then for spice.

david

 

[DaveyF]

Well Davey, I have a pretty interesting space, 18' wide, 38' deep (48' to incl half width alcove), approx 800 sq ft.

I can install spkrs anywhere up to 8' from front walls, and at present my Zus are 8' apart, 4' from each side wall.

Only my descending eaves are a limiting factor, precluding anything higher than 5.5'.

Volume 5500 cub ft.

This kind of space could easily accommodate any of the moderate height leading edge contenders like Rockport Altair, Vivid Giya G1, Magico M3, EA MM3 etc.

Just not Rockport Arrakis or EA MM7 etc.

What dynamic/cones based spkr would you think about for this space? As I say, Apogees or Trios w BassHorns may loom onto my horizon.

Marc, that is an interesting question, because I think your NAT gear would have to be considered with any of the dynamic based speakers, and frankly I doubt it would match well with most of them...perhaps all of them!
In your space, and if budget allowed,my first choice would be one of the YG’s ..from the XV’s to Sonja’s.You already suggested the Vivid’s, a great second choice, imo.
If you wanted a ported design, I would suggest one of the New Wilson’s...for example, the Alexia 2’s would work well in that space. Or, again if funds allow, the Alexx. (Which might work with your NAT’s)

 

[dctom]

Marc you could build an amazing infinite baffle into your end wall behind your current speakers.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Dave, what would that involve?
Benefits?

 

[bonzo75]

Dave, what would that involve?
Benefits?

You can put a driver into the wall. The whole wall will vibrate to produce bass.

 

[dctom]

You would need to box off the last metre or so of your room - not a problem as it is so long - properly implemented you can achieve very low, clean, distortion free bass.
See.......http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/
Contrary to ked’s assertion the wall will not vibrate if it is designed well and you use a manifold