Preamps... nothing is perfect.

[Mike Lavigne]

I think it should go the reverse way - when we want to share private emails we have to show evidence that the author was asked for and granted permission of quoting him. As usual YMMV!

+1.

 

[bazelio]

Higher noise floor is not the same as tape hiss. I am more curious to try the Yggy2 now in my system

Nor did I intend to say it is the same thing. Let me clarify the original statement: Yggy creates a "tape hiss"-like sound. I had assumed the quotations were sufficient. The very non-black Yggy background is reminiscent of the sound of tape hiss, and is referred to as such in other circles.

 

[ack]

Hmm, higher noise floor will mask details; so I can't reconcile this with your statement about the Yggy1 having micro-detail. Unlike tape hiss, which you can hear (effectively as white noise), one would be looking for other ways to describe high noise floor, like *lacking* detail, or high is harshness, and things of that sort.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Nor did I intend to say it is the same thing. Let me clarify the original statement: Yggy creates a "tape hiss"-like sound. I had assumed the quotations were sufficient. The very non-black Yggy background is reminiscent of the sound of tape hiss, and is referred to as such in other circles.

this idea reminds me of the Playback Designs MPS-5 I owned for 9 years. Andreas Koch, the designer, felt that for digital the idea was to sound like music, and the lowest possible noise was not the target situation as real music was not that way. apologies to Andreas if I've miss represented his views, but for a number of years the MPS-5 did sound more like real music than other digital to my ears.

measurements were not kind to the MPS-5, but listening feedback was pretty much.

now, three years removed from my MPS-5, I feel you can have it all with digital. but I respect the choices Andreas made back then.

 

[Al M.]

Hmm, higher noise floor will mask details; so I can't reconcile this with your statement about the Yggy1 having micro-detail. Unlike tape hiss, which you can hear (effectively as white noise), one would be looking for other ways to describe high noise floor, like *lacking* detail, or high is harshness, and things of that sort.

Right. I hear a black background from my Yggy version 1 in my system, and heard the same in Ian's system compared to the Vivaldi.

Alan Jordan has heard the comparison too, and none of us ever heard a higher noise floor, otherwise we would have commented on it. Including myself, because I was very skeptical and just couldn't believe that my Yggy could be that good until I heard it in Ian's system (that was before the upgrade of my own system to a high resolution one).

***

Bazelio, I am wondering when you bought your Yggy1. There were rumors that the Yggy was improved later on from first production batches. Mine is from May 2017.

 

[bazelio]

Hmm, higher noise floor will mask details; so I can't reconcile this with your statement about the Yggy1 having micro-detail. Unlike tape hiss, which you can hear (effectively as white noise), one would be looking for other ways to describe high noise floor, like *lacking* detail, or high is harshness, and things of that sort.

Take Doug MacLeod's "Exactly Like This" from Reference Recordings. He recorded this while sitting in an old, creaky wood chair. On the track "Find Your Right Mind", you can hear the off-mic creaks of the chair as he leans back or rocks to and fro. On most systems, this is a background sound and you may not notice it unless you're aware of it. But it's definitely there. On a Yggy, the chair creak noises are amplified and nearly up front. They are much more prominent than through any other system I've heard. The Yggy presentation of the chair creaks is very unrealistic, IMO. And this is just one specific example. In general, I found that Yggy doesn't do subtle detail well - it pushes background sounds too far forward with brute force instead of finesse. And I am correlating higher noise floor with the heightened presentation of microdetail in this case. Sometimes when you turn up the volume (so to speak), then you hear more of the good and the bad.... Maybe that's not a good analogy. But either way, I'm very familiar with the Yggy having owned it for about 9 months. And it definitely has a tape hiss like sound. We call it a "grayground" elsewhere.

 

[bazelio]

Right. I hear a black background from my Yggy version 1 in my system, and heard the same in Ian's system compared to the Vivaldi.

Alan Jordan has heard the comparison too, and none of us ever heard a higher noise floor, otherwise we would have commented on it. Including myself, because I was very skeptical and just couldn't believe that my Yggy could be that good until I heard it in Ian's system (that was before the upgrade of my own system to a high resolution one).

***

Bazelio, I am wondering when you bought your Yggy1. There were rumors that the Yggy was improved later on from first production batches. Mine is from May 2017.

Al, the Yggy1 grayground problem is very well known. Jason Stoddard acknowledged it, and it has been much written about. This isn't anything new or unique to my Yggy. If you can't hear it through your speakers, that's surprising. Maybe try listening through a sensitive pair of headphones vs almost any other DAC. You'll definitely hear it then. I heard it both ways. You should hear it subside with a Yggy2 serial number.

Edit: Yggy2 serial numbers were "silently" issued for several months before the Yggy2 was officially announced. So, people who ordered Yggy from Schitt for something like 3-4 months prior to the "Schitt Happens" update were receiving Yggy2's without knowing it. If you use USB (gasp!), I'd also suggest upgrading to their latest USB board revision. You can have that done at the same time as a Yggy2 upgrade.

 

[Al M.]

Al, the Yggy1 grayground problem is very well known. Jason Stoddard acknowledged it, and it has been much written about. This isn't anything new or unique to my Yggy.

Yes, people have talked about it. Can you please give me a link to Jason Stoddard's statement? And again, when did you buy your Yggy? This question may have relevance given what I said above.

If you can't hear it through your speakers, that's surprising.

Surprising only if there is anything to hear.

Edit: Yggy2 serial numbers were "silently" issued for several months before the Yggy2 was officially announced. So, people who ordered Yggy from Schitt for something like 3-4 months prior to the "Schitt Happens" update were receiving Yggy2's without knowing it. If you use USB (gasp!), I'd also suggest upgrading to their latest USB board revision. You can have that done at the same time as a Yggy2 upgrade.

My Yggy has a serial number ending in "A", so it is clearly an Yggy1 (Yggy2 has "B"). I have ordered an Yggy2 a while ago, but it's on backorder.

 

[microstrip]

Another great armchair critique. Have you ever heard the Yggy? Have you ever heard Yggy and Vivaldi side by side?

Unfortunately I do not write posts sitting on my Ekornes armchair ... Anyway I was addressing technical aspects that have known consequences in sound quality.

No, I have not listened to the Yggy. Nothing from what I consider my own reliable sources or I have read has triggered my interest on it, on the contrary. Fortunately it is an extensively debated and measured DAC. Surely IMHO, YMMV. This is just a very subjective hobby. But Bazelio experience and comments may change my interest in the future ...

Anyway, my interest was helping to understand Ian preamplifier and system situation, not debating the Yggy per se.

 

[bazelio]

Yes, people have talked about it. Can you please send me a link to Jason Stoddard's statement? And again, when did you buy your Yggy? This question may have relevance given what I said above.



Surprising only if there is anything to hear.



My Yggy has a serial number ending in "A", so it is clearly an Yggy1 (Yggy2 has "B"). I have ordered an Yggy2 a while ago, but it's on backorder.

Why don't you upgrade your Yggy1 through Schitt? Just curious because they are intended to be modular for this purpose. Or maybe the parts for the upgrade are backordered?

I've met Jason in person; I don't have a link to this as there isn't one. Mine was certainly earlier than 2017. You could be on to something there with your rumors, and it'd be interested to find out conclusively. But I've probably heard 20+ Yggys at meets, as it's a very popular (if not the most popular "personal audio" DAC), and I've never heard one with a black background.

 

[PeterA]

Should have let the post remain. The quoted email was not asked to be removed by it's author. There were no personal attacks in the email or nothing egregious.

"Sanitizing" posts presents dangerous ground Steve.

+1

 

[Al M.]

Why don't you upgrade your Yggy1 through Schitt? Just curious because they are intended to be modular for this purpose. Or maybe the parts for the upgrade are backordered?

I want to extensively compare them side by side, just for fun. I wouldn't do this if it were a $ 10K DAC, that's for sure. I could of course have my Yggy1 upgraded and rely on audio memory, but I have experienced that this can be a bad thing. I don't seem to have as sophisticated ears as some 'experts' out there .

I've met Jason in person; I don't have a link to this as there isn't one. Mine was certainly earlier than 2017. You could be on to something there with your rumors, and it'd be interested to find out conclusively. But I've probably heard 20+ Yggys at meets, as it's a very popular (if not the most popular "personal audio" DAC), and I've never heard one with a black background.

I'll let you know. I should easily be able to hear a difference in background, especially now with the carpet change that has silenced my acoustics further, while allowing at the same time for a more open and transparent sound.

 

[ack]

On most systems, this is a background sound and you may not notice it unless you're aware of it. But it's definitely there.

You have an interesting perspective on noise floor. However, in the systems you reference, though, I would say they are just not resolving fine detail.

On a Yggy, the chair creak noises are amplified and nearly up front. They are much more prominent than through any other system I've heard. The Yggy presentation of the chair creaks is very unrealistic, IMO. And this is just one specific example. In general, I found that Yggy doesn't do subtle detail well - it pushes background sounds too far forward with brute force instead of finesse. And I am correlating higher noise floor with the heightened presentation of microdetail in this case.

So this is why your perspective is interesting - higher noise floor pushes micro-details forward and/or artifically amplifies them? I have to admit I have never heard this before.

We call it a "grayground" elsewhere.

Never heard of this before either.

 

[Barry2013]

The DAC was either the Yggy or the Vivaldi 2.0, which I no longer care for, both in Ian's system or at Goodwin's. It presents music in an unnatural way. I was told that Ian has now sold the Vivaldi.

I was struck by your comments on the sound of the Vivaldi.
I have only heard it in showroom or show conditions so obviously not as good as in the home but have Vivaldi aspirations.
I have a three box Scarlatti (no upsampler) and and I was wondering if you have had any experience of the Scarlattis I am very pleased with mine but would be very interested in your assessment of them if you have had the opportunity to listen to them.

 

[ack]

Let’s not derail the thread even further. I have posted in my system thread about it as well, and I had it home for a few days. No experience with Scarlatti. I would add that digital is moving fast

 

[Barry2013]

Thanks Ack

 

[bazelio]

You have an interesting perspective on noise floor. However, in the systems you reference, though, I would say they are just not resolving fine detail.



So this is why your perspective is interesting - higher noise floor pushes micro-details forward and/or artifically amplifies them? I have to admit I have never heard this before.

It's not intuitive. And perhaps the two things are uncorrelated. I'm just trying to describe the final sound. Yggy has both a gray background from a high noise floor, as well as an artificially enhanced presentation of micro-detail. Maybe the latter is by design in order to overcome the former? Who knows. But it's not even my biggest complaint with the Yggy as a whole.

 

[DaveyF]

Davey, I am afraid the situation may not be as clear-cut. I know Ken visited Ian, and the question is, was it when the preamp was already in the system, or before. If the preamp was there, Ken would figured out faulty behavior. And second, according to Ken's own email to Kevin - now deleted - I interpret the designer's version of "transparency" as intending to voice the preamp in such a way as to present the music in a certain "natural" way. I believe Ken has simply failed with these preamps, at least when it comes to true transparency: "nothing added, nothing taken away; meant only to drive amps and switch inputs".

Tasos, there definitely seems to be something wrong here. The CAT preamp is always the heart of any CAT system...and if the CAT amps sound great, (which they certainly do, IME) then the preamp should sound at least as great and be the engine of the system. Since you heard Ian's preamp sounding less than stellar, and yet the amps were sounding great, then IMO the Legend preamp was definitely faulty.If Ken visited Ian's and heard nothing wrong with this set up, would lead me to believe that he must have known that something else in the system was causing the issue...assuming that Ken did in fact do this ( which I find HIGHLY unlikely). Remember that the Legend Black Path is Ken's flagship preamp, even his Renaissance Black Path preamp is superb sounding with the CAT amps. So much so, that IME all other preamps are less synergistic with his amps. The Dart/CAT combo is probably good, but better than the CAT amp/Legend Black Path EX combo...I very very seriously doubt it. Now it is true that the CAT preamps react to a number of variables and you do need to know how to set them up...wrong power cord, bad tubes, wrong connections to the ancillary gear and a few other common mistakes--like utilizing the wrong cartridge ( if it utilizes the phono stage) can certainly impact the sound...like any other high end piece that is not utilized correctly. BUT IME, get them right and they sound in every way at least as great as any of the CAT amps.

 

[Al M.]

Tasos, there definitely seems to be something wrong here. The CAT preamp is always the heart of any CAT system...and if the CAT amps sound great, (which they certainly do, IME) then the preamp should sound at least as great and be the engine of the system. Since you heard Ian's preamp sounding less than stellar, and yet the amps were sounding great, then IMO the Legend preamp was definitely faulty.

That is a reasonable assumption. But since the unit was never sent back to Ken for checking we don't know for sure.

 

[ack]

Should have let the post remain.

+1 from me as well. It may sound surprising, but an email received is your own property and no permission is required to share it, unless you are under an NDA.