Preamps... nothing is perfect.

[adyc]

The gain these two preamps provide is very different. Not sure but I think the dartzeel is +6db and the gat is around +16 dB. This is usually as they are designed to be paired with their amp from the same brand. My Nagra PL-L has a lot of gain and I reduce that quite a bit pairing it with a SS amp for my 2 channel HT system.

darTZeel preamp provides max +11 dB gain.

 

[MadFloyd]

Well just to show how confusing these things can be, tonight I turned on the system and played Nat King Cole's 'Where did Everyone Go?'. It sounded very pleasant and relaxing. The strings were present but sounded 'vintage' and Nat's voice was right up front with lots of body.

After a couple tracks, I switched to the dartZeel and restarted the LP. Well, the strings were much more detailed with better separation and Nat's voice was more sculpted and more distinct from the instrumentation. Much more rewarding.

 

[bazelio]

Well just to show how confusing these things can be, tonight I turned on the system and played Nat King Cole's 'Where did Everyone Go?'. It sounded very pleasant and relaxing. The strings were present but sounded 'vintage' and Nat's voice was right up front with lots of body.

After a couple tracks, I switched to the dartZeel and restarted the LP. Well, the strings were much more detailed with better separation and Nat's voice was more sculpted and more distinct from the instrumentation. Much more rewarding.

By the way, you might want to retune a bit for the Dart, for example with interconnects. I had the D4 for a two week loaner and while I appreciated the detail, in the end I did find they could be a bit tizzy. And more so, their presentation was much more forward than other options I auditioned at the same time. With the Dartzeel, you might really appreciate a better interconnect. Just a thought, as I see you have KS elsewhere and perhaps that's a good bet for you as interconnects with the Dart unit. In my experience, if you're hearing brightness and getting fatigued, then the D4 isn't the best choice.

 

[kevinkwann]

Well just to show how confusing these things can be, tonight I turned on the system and played Nat King Cole's 'Where did Everyone Go?'. It sounded very pleasant and relaxing. The strings were present but sounded 'vintage' and Nat's voice was right up front with lots of body.

After a couple tracks, I switched to the dartZeel and restarted the LP. Well, the strings were much more detailed with better separation and Nat's voice was more sculpted and more distinct from the instrumentation. Much more rewarding.

When you made the switch, did you remember to switch the speaker leads?

 

[MadFloyd]

By the way, you might want to retune a bit for the Dart, for example with interconnects. I had the D4 for a two week loaner and while I appreciated the detail, in the end I did find they could be a bit tizzy. And more so, their presentation was much more forward than other options I auditioned at the same time. With the Dartzeel, you might really appreciate a better interconnect. Just a thought, as I see you have KS elsewhere and perhaps that's a good bet for you as interconnects with the Dart unit. In my experience, if you're hearing brightness and getting fatigued, then the D4 isn't the best choice.

Thank you for your thoughts. I switched to the D4's when I needed to change from XLR to RCA. They seemed very close to the KS from a tonal balance perspective. My KS interconnects are XLR so I can't use them on the GAT and, from what I read, shouldn't on the Dart.

 

[bonzo75]

Is there any difference in your compares depending on whether your source is digital or analog?

 

[asiufy]

I'd still try the KS XLR vs other cable's RCAs on the darTZeel.

 

[KeithR]

Thank you for your thoughts. I switched to the D4's when I needed to change from XLR to RCA. They seemed very close to the KS from a tonal balance perspective. My KS interconnects are XLR so I can't use them on the GAT and, from what I read, shouldn't on the Dart.

I can't see KS a good match with the CJ at all. YMMV.

 

[bazelio]

I can't see KS a good match with the CJ at all. YMMV.

+1

Likewise with D4+Dart. On the otherhand, D4+CJ or KS+Dart makes sense to me. EDIT: I'm forgetting if you're using just the Dart preamp, or preamp and Dart amp. Either way, I'd still say D4 pushes things in a direction you might not like in a system with increased transparency (e.g. Dart preamp).

 

[MadFloyd]

I'd still try the KS XLR vs other cable's RCAs on the darTZeel.

Inputs, outputs or both, Alex?

 

[MadFloyd]

I can't see KS a good match with the CJ at all. YMMV.

Do you not find KS Elation to be fairly neutral, Keith?

 

[Al M.]

By the way, you might want to retune a bit for the Dart, for example with interconnects. I had the D4 for a two week loaner and while I appreciated the detail, in the end I did find they could be a bit tizzy. And more so, their presentation was much more forward than other options I auditioned at the same time. With the Dartzeel, you might really appreciate a better interconnect. Just a thought, as I see you have KS elsewhere and perhaps that's a good bet for you as interconnects with the Dart unit. In my experience, if you're hearing brightness and getting fatigued, then the D4 isn't the best choice.

I don't think the D4 has the issues you describe. In my system it sounds neutral, with highs well integrated with the rest of the frequency range. I did have some issues with treble harshness, but those were related to room acoustics. I fixed them with a suitable carpet, and still plan on ceiling diffusers for further perfection. The D4 cable is unforgiving, but as a neutral, transparent cable it should be. It readily exposes weaknesses elsewhere, in my case the room.

As for forward presentation induced by the D4, I don't hear that either. The depth information and presentation is just the same as with other cables, and with great precision of layering. I do have a more forward overall presentation in my system than others do (while there is still plenty of depth), but that was a conscious choice of speaker set-up and room treatment. It's because I like it; I could easily adjust things otherwise.

 

[asiufy]

Inputs, outputs or both, Alex?

I'd try source first, then the CAT amp later. I don't recall if you have 2 sets of KS XLR, but if you do, that's worth a shot too.
And for the record, Keith doesn't like KS cables. I'd go as far as to say he doesn't like cables, period I don't think he's ever heard Elation in his system, just Emotion and below. Of course he's heard Elation in our systems many times.

cheers,
Alex

 

[KeithR]

Do you not find KS Elation to be fairly neutral, Keith?

Ian - sorry I missed this. I find KS to have a midrange forward quality (all of them that I have tried in my system, and pretty sure an Elation PC was in the mix once as well - and yes, Alex loves that quality as we've heard in my room several times where I disagree with him - isn't that why audio is great?) which may work well in some systems, but your comments about the CJ GAT having a very forward presentation doesn't exactly seem like the right pairing.

But yes, Alex is correct that I'm not a big cable fan in general. Bazelio on this forum is a good reference on cables and has done many swaps over the past year - we share similar thoughts on KS.

 

[microstrip]

Do you not find KS Elation to be fairly neutral, Keith?

I am not Keith, but no, the Elations are not neutral. In my system they showed a clear balance towards midrange detail and, as they have extremely high capacitance, their interaction with equipment is difficult to foresee. IMHO we do not imagine how they sound until we try them in the system.

 

[bonzo75]

I am not Keith, but no, the Elations are not neutral. In my system they showed a clear balance towards midrange detail and, as they have extremely high capacitance, their interaction with equipment is difficult to foresee. IMHO we do not imagine how they sound until we try them in the system.

They are also laid back. So they made Logans sound too laid back. Might work in an aggressive system

 

[MadFloyd]

Thank you for your comments. They have served me fairly well in my system, making things sound a little more balanced and less like smiley-face-EQ. I hear no tonal balance differences between the ZenWave D4s and my Elations (although that may be due to having Elation speaker cables).

Francisco, can you briefly explain the effect of capacitance on cabling? Why is high capacitance problematic?

 

[LL21]

I am using vinyl and CD as sources.

Disappointing to hear that the GAT didn't provide depth for you. I guess it might not for me either - time will tell I suppose.

I'm guessing that dartZeel on dartZeel would be way to bright and solid state for my taste.

I cannot say I have done extensive shoot-outs focusing on depth as it is not a priority for me...though I absolutely acknowledge how it can be magic when it works. In our system, given that the speakers are into the room quite a ways, we do get a lot of depth and layering, but that could well be because we have a lot of space behind the speakers. Additionally, it is not a priority as much as:

- purity of tone
- ability to sort out complex music and not 'mush the instrumental lines together'
- wide-extension
- wide micro/macro dynamics range
- female vocal magic does not hurt, but only if not at the expense of clarity/transparency

 

[analogsa]

Why is high capacitance problematic?

If the source has a high output impedance the cable capacitance will form a low pass filter with it. Even if the source has a low output impedance a capacitive load can provoke instability.

 

[bonzo75]

I cannot say I have done extensive shoot-outs focusing on depth as it is not a priority for me...though I absolutely acknowledge how it can be magic when it works. In our system, given that the speakers are into the room quite a ways, we do get a lot of depth and layering, but that could well be because we have a lot of space behind the speakers. Additionally, it is not a priority as much as:

- purity of tone
- ability to sort out complex music and not 'mush the instrumental lines together'
- wide-extension
- wide micro/macro dynamics range
- female vocal magic does not hurt, but only if not at the expense of clarity/transparency

Did you change to horns Lloyd?