Magico M6 on TAS

[microstrip]

Sometimes life plays tricks on us - thanks to DaveyF original post I just found a JV TAS article "Reflections on whats best" http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/reflections-on-whats-best/

I quote from it before someone else does:

"I can tell you what I think I is best for me, given my taste in and experience with live music, my taste in and experience with canned music, my taste in and experience with hi-fi systems, my listenting room and ancillary equipment, etc. But that is only what I think under very specific conditions. For instance, the current generation of dCS players are "the best" I've heard. (Note: Neither of the current-generation dCS players, the dCS Puccini and the dCS Scalatti, were part of the blind-listening shoot-out that the chap on Audiogon conducted.) Does that make dCS indisputably "best?" Indisputably no. For one thing, I haven't heard every contender for top honors in digital playback (and given the speed with which new products are introduced, how could I?); for another, I have a very specific bias when it comes to what I consider the lifelike presentation of any recorded media, what could be called (somewhat unfairly, since I consider it "realistic") an analog bias"

As I own DCS I am not supposed to enjoy. Why was he not being hyperbolic that time?

 

[PeterA]

I have to strongly disagree with Davey here also, the review is about a truly extraordinary speaker, and it is extremely well written. At least for those who are familiar with what Magico wants to achieve and have heard good sounding representations of the brand. I have heard the predecessor of the M6, the Magico M Project, many times in Ian's (Madfloyd's) system. I am quite familiar with it by now and have followed the journey towards a truly great sound with these speakers, which is not easy to achieve since they expose every flaw in the system, being so transparent. Yes, no speaker is perfect, but there are many things admirable and enjoyable about the M Project, and at its best in can draw you into certain performances like no other speaker I have heard. In particular, to date I have never heard as convincing reproduction of orchestra and of close-up piano from any other speaker (and boy, can it rock, that sealed-enclosure bass is something, in rhythm, definition, resolution, and it has great impact too). When JV speaks about the utter lack of distortion and of harmonic integrity, I know precisely what he means. The harmonic integrity and coherence of piano sound is unparalled, and requires heroic efforts in terms of resonance-free cabinet, superior drivers, and crossovers. I love my system, and think it is very good at so many aspects of music reproduction, and in some ways even piano may be found to be impressive on it. Yet when it comes to harmonic integrity and coherence of representation of sound from this instrument, my system falls so woefully short compared to what I hear from the M Project -- it''s not even funny. If the M6 goes even further than the M Project on this, that would be really extraordinary.

The only thing that puzzles me about JV's comments is the allegedly not so great integration of midrange and treble on the M Project. I find this aspect to be a particular strength of the speaker, without which the aforementioned piano sound would not be possible.

I agree Al. Madfloyd's system, and the MPro in particular, is remarkable in terms of resolution, lack of distortion and coherence. When listening to a string quartet, or solo violin, these speakers exhibit the least amount of discontinuity between drivers that I have ever heard. If the new M6 is even better, OMG.

JV does wax hyperbolic sometimes, but he is very good at describing sounds and distinctions. I enjoy his reviews of top gear the way I enjoy reading reviews of the latest Porsches and Ferraris. I bought my Magico Mini IIs in part based on his review. I was intrigued enough to seek out three auditions, and then I bought a pair. His review of the AirTight Supreme was enough to buy the cartridge unheard. He is an excellent writer. I read some of his reviews as a starting point in a longer investigative process.

Others don't have to read him. Who cares?

 

[metaphacts]

..

Clearly a stark contrast to the the Vandersteen/Wilson Audio design philosophies.

Those are two different design philosophies.

 

[cannata]

I like Alon's answer to the time alignment question. So much BS marketing around the issue...

Interesting to learn about the importance of proper XO phase alignment at the drivers XO points, and how it relates to drivers physical position. Yet some designers choose to move drivers around without changing the XO

 

[jeff1225]

I agree Al. Madfloyd's system, and the MPro in particular, is remarkable in terms of resolution, lack of distortion and coherence. When listening to a string quartet, or solo violin, these speakers exhibit the least amount of discontinuity between drivers that I have ever heard. If the new M6 is even better, OMG.

JV does wax hyperbolic sometimes, but he is very good at describing sounds and distinctions. I enjoy his reviews of top gear the way I enjoy reading reviews of the latest Porsches and Ferraris. I bought my Magico Mini IIs in part based on his review. I was intrigued enough to seek out three auditions, and then I bought a pair. His review of the AirTight Supreme was enough to buy the cartridge unheard. He is an excellent writer. I read some of his reviews as a starting point in a longer investigative process.

Others don't have to read him. Who cares?

The only reason to care is that he only reviews kit he can get for free. You and he have similar tastes in gear, so it only matters when it comes to cost and disposable income. There are without a doubt gear that sounds absolutely amazing that you will love...but you know that JV will only review it if its expensive and he can get it for free.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The only reason to care is that he only reviews kit he can get for free. . . . There are without a doubt gear that sounds absolutely amazing that you will love...but you know that JV will only review it if its expensive and he can get it for free.

+1

I do not know about "only" -- I assume Jonathan occasionally makes an exception -- but, sadly, this is substantially true.

 

[Audiocrack]

RH and JV run TAS as a business in my view. As a consequence commercial interests play an important role. I ended my subscription many years ago because I have lost my faith in their integrity. If a manufacturor does not want to play their game - paying for adds in TAS, inviting the reviewers over and pay for the trips, food, drinks, hotels, etc. and/or provide them with long term loans of equipment - no (rave) review will appear.

In a large part I agree with Davey: I find this flavor of the month approach of JV rather unconvincing. This does not imply that the M6 might not be a good loudspeaker, but JV’s rave review of the M6 means very little in my view.

 

[BMCG]

Those are two different design philosophies.

Meta - appreciate the divergence between Vandersteen and Wilson...

Still you (plural) are within a segment of lauded loudspeaker manufacturers who have extolled the virtues of time alignment...that was the intent of the grouping.

 

[JackD201]

Interesting to learn about the importance of proper XO phase alignment at the drivers XO points, and how it relates to drivers physical position. Yet some designers choose to move drivers around without changing the XO

Time alignment can be achieved electrically, physically or a combination on both. Electrical time and phase alignment is not new. I owned a speaker that employed this when my eldest was crawling. She's in college now.

 

[PeterA]

RH and JV run TAS as a business in my view. As a consequence commercial interests play an important role. I ended my subscription many years ago because I have lost my faith in their integrity. If a manufacturor does not want to play their game - paying for adds in TAS, inviting the reviewers over and pay for the trips, food, drinks, hotels, etc. and/or provide them with long term loans of equipment - no (rave) review will appear.

In a large part I agree with Davey: I find this flavor of the month approach of JV rather unconvincing. This does not imply that the M6 might not be a good loudspeaker, but JV’s rave review of the M6 means very little in my view.

The wining and dining for rave reviews may all be part of the game, but, reading JV's comments about the speaker has more value to me than reading some ad copy. There is much more detail about the sound and technology. And it is far more interesting. If it were not for JV's review, what would we really know about the M6? In a hobby where it is difficult to actually listen to some of these super components, and even the lesser known affordable components from small manufacturers, these reviews at least provide brand awareness with some details not available in full page ads. Few Magico dealers will even carry this speaker for demo, so without JV, how else are those curious about it supposed to learn anything? I'll never be able to afford a Ferrari, let alone drive one on a track, but I sure enjoy reading about them in the glossy magazines and I think I have learned just a little about the latest models, certainly more than I otherwise would have without reading the magazines.

Is JV's review really all that different from the way we have been introduced to the American Sound turntable or even the TechDAS AF1? Absent actual listening experience, we learn through other people's stories and enthusiasm laced with hyperbole. We then discuss these products and speculate about their performance and quality and technology with people we have not met. TAS and Magico just happen to be better funded and more glossy, and no one on WBF owns an M6 to tell us about it.

Sure, there is no substitute for first hand experience with an audio product, but absent that, do JV's reviews really harm the cause? Read the comments at the end of the blog. People seem to appreciate his efforts and even learn something by reading his reviews. There is no harm in ignoring them either, just like choosing not to read these forum posts.

 

[bonzo75]

I disagree, with the other products you get a lot of data from people who have owned it, they and their friends have compared it, and some moved on from it. That is quite different. Also, after a rave, how long it stays with the raver is another good indication.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The wining and dining for rave reviews may all be part of the game, but, reading JV's comments about the speaker has more value to me than reading some ad copy. There is much more detail about the sound and technology. And it is far more interesting. If it were not for JV's review, what would we really know about the M6? In a hobby where it is difficult to actually listen to some of these super components, and even the lesser known affordable components from small manufacturers, these reviews at least provide brand awareness with some details not available in full page ads. Few Magico dealers will even carry this speaker for demo, so without JV, how else are those curious about it supposed to learn anything? I'll never be able to afford a Ferrari, let alone drive one on a track, but I sure enjoy reading about them in the glossy magazines and I think I have learned just a little about the latest models, certainly more than I otherwise would have without reading the magazines.

Is JV's review really all that different from the way we have been introduced to the American Sound turntable or even the TechDAS AF1? Absent actual listening experience, we learn through other people's stories and enthusiasm laced with hyperbole. We then discuss these products and speculate about their performance and quality and technology with people we have not met. TAS and Magico just happen to be better funded and more glossy, and no one on WBF owns an M6 to tell us about it.

Sure, there is no substitute for first hand experience with an audio product, but absent that, do JV's reviews really harm the cause? Read the comments at the end of the blog. People seem to appreciate his efforts and even learn something by reading his reviews. There is no harm in ignoring them either, just like choosing not to read these forum posts.

I get that JV has made his bed over time on the raves, and so there is that. but also agree that his reviews do contain lots of great information not otherwise easily attained.

and I will always appreciate his review in 2000 about the Kharma Exquisite 1C that caused me to step up and buy them sight unseen (i'd never seen any Kharma in the flesh let alone heard the big Exquisites); and it was a great move for me on many levels. so JV get's a lifetime pass from me.

 

[cannata]

Time alignment can be achieved electrically, physically or a combination on both...

Wrong.
Not "or" BUT only a "combination of both", and that exactly his point (unless DSP is used). Just moving drivers physically is not enough. That explains, BTW, how poorly these movable contraptions measures.

 

[JackD201]

Wrong.
Not "or" BUT only a "combination of both", and that exactly his point (unless DSP is used). Just moving drivers physically is not enough. That explains, BTW, how poorly these movable contraptions measures.

You really should read what Alon said more carefully.

 

[Audiocrack]

The wining and dining for rave reviews may all be part of the game, but, reading JV's comments about the speaker has more value to me than reading some ad copy. There is much more detail about the sound and technology. And it is far more interesting. If it were not for JV's review, what would we really know about the M6? In a hobby where it is difficult to actually listen to some of these super components, and even the lesser known affordable components from small manufacturers, these reviews at least provide brand awareness with some details not available in full page ads. Few Magico dealers will even carry this speaker for demo, so without JV, how else are those curious about it supposed to learn anything? I'll never be able to afford a Ferrari, let alone drive one on a track, but I sure enjoy reading about them in the glossy magazines and I think I have learned just a little about the latest models, certainly more than I otherwise would have without reading the magazines.

Is JV's review really all that different from the way we have been introduced to the American Sound turntable or even the TechDAS AF1? Absent actual listening experience, we learn through other people's stories and enthusiasm laced with hyperbole. We then discuss these products and speculate about their performance and quality and technology with people we have not met. TAS and Magico just happen to be better funded and more glossy, and no one on WBF owns an M6 to tell us about it.

Sure, there is no substitute for first hand experience with an audio product, but absent that, do JV's reviews really harm the cause? Read the comments at the end of the blog. People seem to appreciate his efforts and even learn something by reading his reviews. There is no harm in ignoring them either, just like choosing not to read these forum posts.

My main point is that they lost their integrity in my view: what about all the great products - maybe ‘better’ and (much) cheaper - of manufacturors that do not want to play along this ‘wining and dining’ approach and as a consequence do not get a rave review?

So to me it is not a matter of (not) being of part of the game but an approach that is principly flawed.

 

[DaveC]

Wrong.
Not "or" BUT only a "combination of both", and that exactly his point (unless DSP is used). Just moving drivers physically is not enough. That explains, BTW, how poorly these movable contraptions measures.

Lol. Bash 'em whenever and wherever possible?

Actually, you're wrong. As Jack said read what Alon said again and maybe you'll get it.

 

[cannata]

Lol. Bash 'em whenever and wherever possible?

The only brand that consistently get bashed here is Magico. I dont see these kinds of cynical reactions to rave reviews of the "other" brand.

Actually, you're wrong. As Jack said read what Alon said again and maybe you'll get it.

This is what is written:

"Trying to keep things simple, let me just highlight the two MUST conditions where such concepts are even probable: 1) a first-order acoustical crossover, i.e. a perfect 6dB-per-octave acoustical slope from the designated bandpass; 2) a physical alignment of the drivers’ acoustical centers, which, unless a concentric driver is used, is only possible for one point in space at a time."

Ok, sorry, I left out the concentric driver, but how does this change my point?

 

[DaveyF]

The only brand that consistently get bashed here is Magico. I dont see these kinds of cynical reactions to rave reviews of the "other" brand.



This is what is written:

"Trying to keep things simple, let me just highlight the two MUST conditions where such concepts are even probable: 1) a first-order acoustical crossover, i.e. a perfect 6dB-per-octave acoustical slope from the designated bandpass; 2) a physical alignment of the drivers’ acoustical centers, which, unless a concentric driver is used, is only possible for one point in space at a time."

Ok, sorry, I left out the concentric driver, but how does this change my point?

Cannata, we all get that you are a Magico fan boy....and IMO nothing wrong with that. However, IF--big IF, you were actually reading my OP, you would see that I was not actually bashing the Magico M6 in any way. I was attempting ( ok, maybe this attempt should have been more explicit) to once again decry the reviewing style of JV. He is, at least IMHO, one of the worst offenders of what I call the 'flip flop style' of writing and reviewing. He will ALWAYS post a hyperbole laced review of the latest and greatest ( to some there is nothing wrong with that..and I would not debate that here; only to say that this is a personal preference, along with agreeing that exposing the latest and greatest does have some value). What my main concern and dislike is, relates to the fact that he will 'magically' bring to life the failings that the prior rave review product is now eliciting. ( where were these very same failings in the original review??)
I would be willing to bet you that once the Magico M6 replacement ( either from Magico or from another competing company) comes available for him to review, the warts and scars of the M6 will be brought to light!
Like Audiocrack is stating, how ethical is this?

 

[Al M.]

What my main concern and dislike is, relates to the fact that he will 'magically' bring to life the failings that the prior rave review product is now eliciting. ( where were these very same failings in the original review??)
I would be willing to bet you that once the Magico M6 replacement ( either from Magico or from another competing company) comes available for him to review, the warts and scars of the M6 will be brought to light!
Like Audiocrack is stating, how ethical is this?

Actually, Davey, it is not that simple. In my review of the Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE monitors I have described them in a very positive light, compared to my old speakers, even though I have also pointed out on a few occasions in the review that, of course, they are not perfect and have their failings, or do not perform to the best standards.

I plan to also write a review on the Reference 3A Reflector monitors (their top-of-line monitors) once I get them, and which speakers will I be comparing them to? That's right, my current Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE monitors which I reviewed so positively. In comparison, these will not look as good as in my review of them.

Is that dishonest? I don't think so. Of course the failings of my current speakers will be highlighted in the comparison review of the better speakers, just as the failings of my old speakers were highlighted in the review of my current speakers), but this does not mean that I was deliberately hiding them in the first place.

As I said, it is not that simple.

 

[cannata]

Cannata, we all get that you are a Magico fan boy....and IMO nothing wrong with that. However, IF--big IF, you were actually reading my OP, you would see that I was not actually bashing the Magico M6 in any way. I was attempting ( ok, maybe this attempt should have been more explicit) to once again decry the reviewing style of JV. He is, at least IMHO, one of the worst offenders of what I call the 'flip flop style' of writing and reviewing. He will ALWAYS post a hyperbole laced review of the latest and greatest ( to some there is nothing wrong with that..and I would not debate that here; only to say that this is a personal preference, along with agreeing that exposing the latest and greatest does have some value). What my main concern and dislike is, relates to the fact that he will 'magically' bring to life the failings that the prior rave review product is now eliciting. ( where were these very same failings in the original review??)
I would be willing to bet you that once the Magico M6 replacement ( either from Magico or from another competing company) comes available for him to review, the warts and scars of the M6 will be brought to light!
Like Audiocrack is stating, how ethical is this?

Sorry, but I never understood your point. JV and such are in the business of reporting the "news", and that is what he does. You get stuck on his style, but let’s face it and hope that new products will be better than the ones they replaced. There are no "perfect" anything, we know that, but we all know that some of what we once consider “great" is not so great any more, it is called progress. I just replaced my Spectral preamp, and only now hear some of the issues my old one had (Major issues in comparison). It never bother me before, but there is no going back now...