Does everything in Munich sound like Magico/ Spectral? Anything tonally rich or not European taste?

[microstrip]

Microstrip, do you think you could identify a Magico speaker if it were hidden behind a sonically transparent curtain? How would you describe Magico's "characteristic sound"?
(...)

No, I would never identify anything hidden behind a sonically transparent curtain, even a Bose speaker or a transistor radio ... Too experienced to accept such childish challenges ...

I am not a good audio writer, I will not risk in describing Magico "characteristic sound". I was addressing mainly Q7 II, M3 and MPro in my sentence - older generations seemed to have a too wide variation in sound characteristics, and be too specific in pairing to create such category. However I can mentally compare thsi trio with experiences with the speakers I have also often listened such as Wilson, Sonus Faber or SoundLab's. It is clear that the brand objectives in sound reproduction differ. I now know what I can get and how it will be delivered by each of them and somewhat what type of music makes each of them shine.

BTW, surely the Q7 II, M3 and MPro do not sound like the Mini II. Even the tonal balance is quite different.

 

[Al M.]

The impression one gets from reading show reports from Munich is that the show appeals to guys who find realism in the fast, lean, clean sound symbolized by Magico/ Spectral combination and championed by reviewers like "Sterile" Jon Valin and "Worthless to the Audio Fan" Robert Harley.

If one makes a trip to Munich, can one find tonally rich gear, full-bodied (not syrupy or fat!) sound with big bass wallop as well, or is the European market only interested in that more lean sound?

I did hear full-bodied, tonally rich sound on 2 of 3 occasions where i heard a Magico/ Spectral combination:

1. Spectral DMA-400 mono blocks with Magico S7
2. Spectral DMA-300RS stereo amp with Magico Q1
(Preamp in both cases was the DMC-30SV)

So I am not sure what you are even talking about.

 

[PeterA]

No, I would never identify anything hidden behind a sonically transparent curtain, even a Bose speaker or a transistor radio ... Too experienced to accept such childish challenges ...

I am not a good audio writer, I will not risk in describing Magico "characteristic sound". I was addressing mainly Q7 II, M3 and MPro in my sentence - older generations seemed to have a too wide variation in sound characteristics, and be too specific in pairing to create such category. However I can mentally compare thsi trio with experiences with the speakers I have also often listened such as Wilson, Sonus Faber or SoundLab's. It is clear that the brand objectives in sound reproduction differ. I now know what I can get and how it will be delivered by each of them and somewhat what type of music makes each of them shine.

BTW, surely the Q7 II, M3 and MPro do not sound like the Mini II. Even the tonal balance is quite different.

Fair enough micro. If you don't feel comfortable describing the "characteristic sound" that you have identified from a particular speaker brand, that is fine. Would you mind sharing what type of music makes the brands you mention, shine? I'm curious. I happen to prefer acoustic small scale jazz, vocals, and chamber on my Mini IIs, perhaps because of its midrange and limited extension and scale.

I don't think I could identify a particular speaker brand either while blind, even though I have never tried. I don't think it is a childish challenge and I don't understand what being too experienced has to do with it. These things should be in the interest of fun and learning. I do think it would be extremely difficult and I would enjoy trying it one day.

I have heard the Q7, the MPro, and many other Magico speakers, but I have not heard the Q7II or M3 yet. I suspect that fact that the three models you sight are all full range would give them a much different tonal balance than my limited frequency Mini IIs, and the new Magico tweeter does sound different from the one in the Mini II, as far as I can tell based on different systems and rooms. I should add that I have never directly compared any of the Magico speakers to others in the same system or room, so I wonder how much of my impressions of individual models has to do with the speakers, the systems of which they were a part, or the rooms in which I heard them. Because I have found it so easy to identify differences between various sources in Magico based systems, I tend to think that they have few colorations in general and one is hearing more of the rest of the system and room than he is the speaker itself. At least, that is my impression based on my experience with Magico.

 

[PeterA]

I did hear full-bodied, tonally rich sound on 2 of 3 occasions where i heard a Magico/ Spectral combination:

1. Spectral DMA-400 mono blocks with Magico S7
2. Spectral DMA-300RS stereo amp with Magico Q1
(Preamp in both cases was the DMC-30SV)

So I am not sure what you are even talking about.

I was with you during these auditions, and I can add the V2 with Spectral, Q3 with Boulder, Q1 with Pass, Q7 with Spectral, and they all sounded full bodied and tonally rich. Frankly, I don't understand what point Caesar is trying to make with the OP, nor do I understand what he means by "European Taste".

I don't understand the description of Valin being "sterile" either. He highly recommended two products which I subsequently bought: the Magico Mini II and the AirTight Supreme cartridge. In my system, neither sounds "sterile".

 

[microstrip]

Fair enough micro. If you don't feel comfortable describing the "characteristic sound" that you have identified from a particular speaker brand, that is fine. Would you mind sharing what type of music makes the brands you mention, shine? I'm curious. I happen to prefer acoustic small scale jazz, vocals, and chamber on my Mini IIs, perhaps because of its midrange and limited extension and scale.
(...)

Wilson Audio - an unique way in large orchestral music. Humanization of the realistic of the microdetail of human voice, making it more lifelike. Music that needs great soundstage depth layering - such as chamber music. A permanent waltz, as a good friend says. Shows the inside of classic music. Perfect for night-club atmospheric recordings or opera.

Magico - great playing live amplified music, that has different dynamics than acoustical music. The speaker to listen to Pat Metheny "One Quiet Night". Loves the type of music usually played in stadiums and similar places, that can sound great but I do not listen in my system. Welcomes rock guitars and drums. People who play instruments seem to like them. Analog freaks seem to love them as they are great listening tools for turntable tweaking.

Sonus Faber - sopranos and strings, surely. Loves AliaVox recordings. Forget and listen. The Aida was in different league of the brand (here represented by the Homage models) , perhaps halfway between the Wilson's and the Magico's, having an almost "electrostatic" balance, but excellent dynamics.


Disclaimer - short and incomplete opinions extremely influenced by the speakers/systems I have owned, my preferences and my friends systems. In my country these brands are all distributed by the same company, I often listen to them in the same large room.

 

[BruceD]

Wooooo Micro--Excellent surmising of the three brands---in words of one syllable some of us peasants can understand--Good One!!

I agree with you on two of the brands you mentioned--I've owned Both

The one I have not owned and would not for sonic reasons --as I savour my delicate hearing sensibilities but I won't go there I sorta agree on your quips (I'd gone more intrusive myself-ha!)

Well put though Sir

BruceD

 

[Al M.]

Wooooo Micro--Excellent surmising of the three brands---in words of one syllable some of us peasants can understand--Good One!!

I happen to disagree. I have extensively heard the Magico Mini II (in Peter A.'s system) and the M Project (in Madfloyd's ssystem) on classical and jazz, and have been particularly impressed with the speakers on these genres (while rock can sound good too, of course).

Honestly, I have no clue what Francisco (Micro) is talking about in his characterization (sorry ). So I probably go with his disclaimer...

 

[bonzo75]

Wilson Audio - an unique way in large orchestral music. Humanization of the realistic of the microdetail of human voice, making it more lifelike. Music that needs great soundstage depth layering - such as chamber music. A permanent waltz, as a good friend says. Shows the inside of classic music. Perfect for night-club atmospheric recordings or opera.

Magico - great playing live amplified music, that has different dynamics than acoustical music. The speaker to listen to Pat Metheny "One Quiet Night". Loves the type of music usually played in stadiums and similar places, that can sound great but I do not listen in my system. Welcomes rock guitars and drums. People who play instruments seem to like them. Analog freaks seem to love them as they are great listening tools for turntable tweaking.

Sonus Faber - sopranos and strings, surely. Loves AliaVox recordings. Forget and listen. The Aida was in different league of the brand (here represented by the Homage models) , perhaps halfway between the Wilson's and the Magico's, having an almost "electrostatic" balance, but excellent dynamics.


Disclaimer - short and incomplete opinions extremely influenced by the speakers/systems I have owned, my preferences and my friends systems. In my country these brands are all distributed by the same company, I often listen to them in the same large room.

Of those 3 I will take the Sonus faber for small to medium rooms, Alexandria for bigger rooms

 

[BruceD]

Sir, i have NOT disclosed which of the three I favour with slight disdain--so your observation is purely your opinion--and it could be wrong

Never judge a book /etc/etc

I do agree Peter A's System is an absolute pristine example of dedication to the craft--Kudo's to him!

BruceD

 

[Al M.]

Sir, i have NOT disclosed which of the three I favour with slight disdain--so your observation is purely your opinion--and it could be wrong

Never judge a book /etc/etc

I don't know what this has to do with my response...

I do agree Peter A's System is an absolute pristine example of dedication to the craft--Kudo's to him!

BruceD

Well said.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Somewhat surprised by how much traction this thread generated. It starts with the kind of generalization that any sane person should cringe at, especially the "European taste" innuendo. Yet here we are, discussing, as if the references and premises weren't cartoonish enough.

I will address the Magico and Spectral being portrayed as lacking in term of tonality. It is time that experience audiophiles stop using those wild generalization especially about brands that have established themselves because of the quality of their output. Spectral electronics do not add much to what is on the medium, they make sure of taking themselves out in ways that many electronics don't. Don't expect any Spectral-based system to sweeten or add anything in the way of an aesthetics to the reproduction. They are the "just-the-facts-ma'm" type of electronics. They amplify the signal as cleanly as possible and serve it to you. Many electronics add their signature to the reproduction, in this interesting world of audiophilia this is seen as a quality, until one realizes that everything sounds the same through this (or not...). Magico speaker are the same in the model I have heard. Magico speakers tend to remove themselves in a way that can even unsettle the unaccustomed. THey may be the more noise-free speakers one would have heard. More so than most speakers ( or any) one would have heard. Often with the Magico one has the bizarre impression of them not playing at all.. THe music doesn't seem to come from them... the sound is just .... "there" with nothing added... absence of distortion is unsettling when one is used to it. It sounds, for the lack of a better world , "strange". Trying to illustrate it: In the old days there was the Baxandall type or "tone correction" : the "Bass" and "Treble" buttons that adorned our electronics.. If after having boosted the treble , you would bring it to flat, the sound will appear to be lifeless, dull. It takes a certain amount of time to accept the now unboosted treble as correct. Magico will do that to many, used as they have become, to speakers not speaking the truth and so will Spectral.. From there to qualify them as "Not-tonally-rich" is the stretch that we are discussing about ..

As for the "European Taste" intonation, the less is said about it the better... I will try one jab however... such a reference is IMO , of poor taste

 

[bonzo75]

Now you see why this generated so much traction ^^

 

[Al M.]

Hi

Somewhat surprised by how much traction this thread generated. It starts with the kind of generalization that any sane person should cringe at, especially the "European taste" innuendo. Yet here we are, discussing, as if the references and premises weren't cartoonish enough.

I will address the Magico and Spectral being portrayed as lacking in term of tonality. It is time that experience audiophiles stop using those wild generalization especially about brands that have established themselves because of the quality of their output. Spectral electronics do not add much to what is on the medium, they make sure of taking themselves out in ways that many electronics don't. Don't expect any Spectral-based system to sweeten or add anything in the way of an aesthetics to the reproduction. They are the "just-the-facts-ma'm" type of electronics. They amplify the signal as cleanly as possible and serve it to you. Many electronics add their signature to the reproduction, in this interesting world of audiophilia this is seen as a quality, until one realizes that everything sounds the same through this (or not...). Magico speaker are the same in the model I have heard. Magico speakers tend to remove themselves in a way that can even unsettle the unaccustomed. THey may be the more noise-free speakers one would have heard. More so than most speakers ( or any) one would have heard. Often with the Magico one has the bizarre impression of them not playing at all.. THe music doesn't seem to come from them... the sound is just .... "there" with nothing added... absence of distortion is unsettling when one is used to it. It sounds, for the lack of a better world , "strange". Trying to illustrate it: In the old days there was the Baxandall type or "tone correction" : the "Bass" and "Treble" buttons that adorned our electronics.. If after having boosted the treble , you would bring it to flat, the sound will appear to be lifeless, dull. It takes a certain amount of time to accept the now unboosted treble as correct. Magico will do that to many, used as they have become, to speakers not speaking the truth and so will Spectral.. From there to qualify them as "Not-tonally-rich" is the stretch that we are discussing about ..

As for the "European Taste" intonation, the less is said about it the better... I will try one jab however... such a reference is IMO , of poor taste

Well said, Frantz. As for the European taste, I didn't even notice that -- and I grew up and lived a long time in Europe (Austria, Germany, The Netherlands). I must have been totally dulled by the stupid generalizations and hyperbolic statements that some posters here constantly make.

Unthinking dogma running rampant.

 

[PeterA]

Hi

Somewhat surprised by how much traction this thread generated. It starts with the kind of generalization that any sane person should cringe at, especially the "European taste" innuendo. Yet here we are, discussing, as if the references and premises weren't cartoonish enough.

I will address the Magico and Spectral being portrayed as lacking in term of tonality. It is time that experience audiophiles stop using those wild generalization especially about brands that have established themselves because of the quality of their output. Spectral electronics do not add much to what is on the medium, they make sure of taking themselves out in ways that many electronics don't. Don't expect any Spectral-based system to sweeten or add anything in the way of an aesthetics to the reproduction. They are the "just-the-facts-ma'm" type of electronics. They amplify the signal as cleanly as possible and serve it to you. Many electronics add their signature to the reproduction, in this interesting world of audiophilia this is seen as a quality, until one realizes that everything sounds the same through this (or not...). Magico speaker are the same in the model I have heard. Magico speakers tend to remove themselves in a way that can even unsettle the unaccustomed. THey may be the more noise-free speakers one would have heard. More so than most speakers ( or any) one would have heard. Often with the Magico one has the bizarre impression of them not playing at all.. THe music doesn't seem to come from them... the sound is just .... "there" with nothing added... absence of distortion is unsettling when one is used to it. It sounds, for the lack of a better world , "strange". Trying to illustrate it: In the old days there was the Baxandall type or "tone correction" : the "Bass" and "Treble" buttons that adorned our electronics.. If after having boosted the treble , you would bring it to flat, the sound will appear to be lifeless, dull. It takes a certain amount of time to accept the now unboosted treble as correct. Magico will do that to many, used as they have become, to speakers not speaking the truth and so will Spectral.. From there to qualify them as "Not-tonally-rich" is the stretch that we are discussing about ..

As for the "European Taste" intonation, the less is said about it the better... I will try one jab however... such a reference is IMO , of poor taste

Frantz, I attempted to write something similar, but you made the point more clearly. Thank you. When listening to a Magico/Spectral(/MIT) based system, I think one is hearing the characteristics of the rest of the system and/or room to a greater extent than when listening to most other speaker/amp combinations precisely because these two brands are generally quite low in distortion, especially their current models. "just-th-facts-ma'm" or "transparent to the source (component)". This is how I would describe the house sound of these two brands. Of course, these are not the only two brands with this characteristic, but they are often sighted in these discussions.

I have heard the Q7, the MPro, and many other Magico speakers, but I have not heard the Q7II or M3 yet. I suspect that fact that the three models you sight are all full range would give them a much different tonal balance than my limited frequency Mini IIs, and the new Magico tweeter does sound different from the one in the Mini II, as far as I can tell based on different systems and rooms. I should add that I have never directly compared any of the Magico speakers to others in the same system or room, so I wonder how much of my impressions of individual models has to do with the speakers, the systems of which they were a part, or the rooms in which I heard them. Because I have found it so easy to identify differences between various sources in Magico based systems, I tend to think that they have few colorations in general and one is hearing more of the rest of the system and room than he is the speaker itself. At least, that is my impression based on my experience with Magico.

I was with you during these auditions, and I can add the V2 with Spectral, Q3 with Boulder, Q1 with Pass, Q7 with Spectral, and they all sounded full bodied and tonally rich. Frankly, I don't understand what point Caesar is trying to make with the OP, nor do I understand what he means by "European Taste".

The subject of audiophile taste being regional, that I think could be an interesting topic for discussion. Do different regions tend to favor analog or digital, SS or tubes, cones or horns? Where is the DIY activity the greatest? If so, why? I wonder if tastes are converging as equipment becomes more neutral and resolving and is sold around the world. Based on what I'm reading and in my limited experience, the best analog and digital are just now beginning to sound more similar than different, same with SS and tube electronics, and in general, systems are becoming more accurate to the recording, and if recordings are excellent, than the systems are sounding more natural and life like. Boy, that could be the topic of quite a contentious thread discussion.

 

[Al M.]

Based on what I'm reading and in my limited experience, the best analog and digital are just now beginning to sound more similar than different, same with SS and tube electronics, and in general, systems are becoming more accurate to the recording, and if recordings are excellent, than the systems are sounding more natural and life like.

I agree.

Boy, that could be the topic of quite a contentious thread discussion.

Why, I just agreed with you But no, you're right, this could be quite an interesting discussion.

 

[ddk]

Good to know Al well made right sounding transports are hard to come by and what do you use for your digital link?

david

Fortunately, in 2014 Simaudio Moon came out with a great CD transport that works wonderfully in my system, the 260 DT:

http://www.tonepublications.com/review/simaudio-moon-neo-260d-cd-transportdac/

From the review:

As Simaudio’s Lionel Goodfield is quick to point out, the Neo 260D “is first and foremost a transport; the drive mechanism and suspension are virtually identical to those in the 650D and 750D.” Like its more expensive stable mates, the Neo 260D is built in-house and not supplied by an external manufacturer. And while I enjoy the DAC part of the equation, I concentrate during my review on using it solely as a transport, pairing it with a wide range of DACs—from the inexpensive Meridian Explorer all the way up to the $109,000 dCS Vivaldi stack.

If you need a great DAC and want the ability to play an actual disc now and then, the extra $1,000 for the Neo 260D with onboard DAC is well worth the added cost. Those with a great DAC already installed in their system and wanting to either replace an aging (or dead) transport will be amazed by the Neo 260D’s sound quality. Fifteen years ago a transport this good would have a $10,000 price tag attached; This MOON does it for just $3,000. Now that’s progress.

***

The version as transport only, which I have, costs just $ 2K. I have the silver-colored version.

 

[Al M.]

Good to know Al well made right sounding transports are hard to come by and what do you use for your digital link?

david

Hi David,

I use the AES/EBU connection, with an MIT Proline digital cable.

NB: This Simaudio Moon transport was also the digital source for the Redbook CD session at Goodwin's which I attended together with Peter A. who, as you know, exclusively listens to his (top-notch) analog in his system, and from which he reported enthusiastically about resolution and naturalness of sound:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...win-s-High-End&p=379841&viewfull=1#post379841

There the AES/EBU digital cable was also MIT, but the top model -- twice the price of the transport

 

[bonzo75]

The subject of audiophile taste being regional, that I think could be an interesting topic for discussion. Do different regions tend to favor analog or digital, SS or tubes, cones or horns? Where is the DIY activity the greatest? If so, why? I wonder if tastes are converging as equipment becomes more neutral and resolving and is sold around the world. Based on what I'm reading and in my limited experience, the best analog and digital are just now beginning to sound more similar than different, same with SS and tube electronics, and in general, systems are becoming more accurate to the recording, and if recordings are excellent, than the systems are sounding more natural and life like. Boy, that could be the topic of quite a contentious thread discussion.

Regional – In Asia, there seem to be two types – those who want expensive status, and there are also a lot of vintage horn types. They also seem to settle for big speakers in small rooms.

US – Most US brands are well marketed, distributed, and serviced. Everything in the US, hifi or otherwise, is usually better marketed and coming from the capitalist capital, seems to have a higher profit motive. US houses are huge, construction is different from EU houses, and the walls have different bass characteristics. There is a penchant for bigger amps and bigger speakers, with a room to go for them.

EU – Lots of cottage manufacturers. UK is a tough market, mostly used, anal on budget, and love their Audionotes, Kondos, etc.

All this is a broad generalization in the spirit of the thread, which makes as much sense as spirit of the music

 

[Cincy2]

I'll weigh in here because I have a pair of Magico M3's and I'm feeding the dCS front end with files on an Aurender W20 server. I've been an audiophile for over 25 years and I have never heard digital sound as lifelike or emotionally satisfying as I'm hearing now from this combination. The good recordings are sublime. The bad ones really bad. My system is passing me the truth. Some people can't handle the truth (apologies to Jack Nicholson).

Cincy

 

[MadFloyd]

The impression one gets from reading show reports from Munich is that the show appeals to guys who find realism in the fast, lean, clean sound symbolized by Magico/ Spectral combination and championed by reviewers like "Sterile" Jon Valin and "Worthless to the Audio Fan" Robert Harley.

If one makes a trip to Munich, can one find tonally rich gear, full-bodied (not syrupy or fat!) sound with big bass wallop as well, or is the European market only interested in that more lean sound?

Sort of begs the question, what gear do you find tonally rich, full bodied but NOT syrupy or fat? There's a fine line here somewhere I'm sure. Do you prefer a euphoric sound rather than a realistic sound (let's put aside the thin, detailed, analytical sound)?

And what's a big bass wallop if not a somewhat generous mid-bass hump? Is that not 'fat'?

Also agree with others that Munich seems to have much more in the way of horns and tubes.