Is it unwise to buy a state of the art CD player at this time?

[bonzo75]

Btw, if Russ wants both a CD and a dac, it is a much more loss question...is the spectral good as a transport, as say, compared to esoteric? Or the CEC TLX? CD players with a good inbuilt dac may or may not be good as transports

 

[mullard88]

Hi bonzo75,

On post #241, I do not know how well the Spectral as a transport will compare against Esoteric or CEC. In my experience, using the Spectral 4000SL as a transport feeding a Berkeley Audio Alpha dac against a laptop feeding a Berkeley Audio Alpha dac, the Spectral Berkeley combo to my ears was definitely superior. The laptop Berkeley combo sounded smeared compared to Spectral Berkeley. This smearing is very subtle. I did not realize the smearing until I compared the combo to the Spectral Berkeley combo. For me, the Spectral CD player is an acceptable transport. As for Russ, only he can tell.

 

[bonzo75]

A normal laptop will be a poor transport

 

[microstrip]

microstrip

High End anything is usually expensive. I thought we were over that
Simple is a relative notion.
Let's take the example of driving.. most everyone on this board drive ... few are able to race cars. Same with anything in life once you get to a certain level. Ripping is easy. getting the best out of CA is not easy. Setting up a TT is not, nor is setting up a R2R or even a 2-ch system. We are trying to get the best of a medium this requires effort and learning and care.
I maintain that streaming music ( I suppose that some would download their music and burn them on CD .. that looks to me quite interesting ) gets you to another level in term of music enjoyment. It is not "simple" but can be done.
As for Tidal missing some things .. that is certainly true, you could add Qobuz to the equation and Spotify ...ooops scratch that its mp3 ... ... What they miss and you like you buy.

$20/month for over a millions of albums ... that is a pretty good deal. Even if only 1% of what they have is any musically good .. that's over 10,000 albums ... if you add Qobuz, that's over 15,000 albums ...
As for Physical media not decreasing .. Believe that is NOT the case all you want, the facts don't support your belief. All around the world, Newspapers are disappearing and kids download most of their music, you could ask Netflix how their DVD renting service is growing ...as compared to their streaming services. I do get your point though there are enough Cds around to listen for a very long time. There are enough books in circulation never to have to buy a e-book and there are enough DVD of movies never to want to stream through Netflix... I could add there are enough LPs in circulation for some to never having to buy a CD... I prefer the joy of discovery, the ease , convenience and ergonomy of files.. You don't .. No problems , no harm done.

Now let me go back to Roon .. controlled by the same PC I am writing this on...

The analogies you refer (cars, vinyl, mp3, newspapers, kids) just move us away from the key points I addressed without addressing them... And I have shown facts about physical media worldwide in previous posts that you prefer to ignore. My posts are not addressing kids, mainly mature audiophiles in the present.

And yes, the idea of using the same PC where I write this post to control my music and system looks terrible for me ...

 

[microstrip]

Micro, you are an audio busybody and try doing stuff one your own, and invite these issues, and then try solving them. That is YOUR choice of lifestyle. If I wanted, I could order an Auralic Aries or Aurender, and the dealer would come here and set up everything himself, and hand me the ipad and I would be streaming away. These are easy to install with phone help as well. Same with CAPS, build it yourself or buy a completed version.

With the SGM that Bill used, they can access it over the internet and do all updates for software etc over the web, without the user having to intervene. It is made for plug and play service. Like with good things in our hobby, you can get a ready set up version or forever toy with it yourself version.

I have listened several times to the Aurendar and similar products killing the performance of good systems - and I say it, because the systems played decent when used with physical media. So I decided to move to the NAS approach, recommended by DCS and prasied by its users. My work in setting the NAS system or the SACD ripping station is not lifestyle, it is part of trying to have a decent sound with audio files, I dislike this work. Although I like experimenting, expensive digital servers have almost zero re-sales value if you do not like them - much more complicated in this aspect than trying equipment.

 

[FrantzM]

The analogies you refer (cars, vinyl, mp3, newspapers, kids) just move us away from the key points I addressed without addressing them... And I have shown facts about physical media worldwide in previous posts that you prefer to ignore. My posts are not addressing kids, mainly mature audiophiles in the present.

And yes, the idea of using the same PC where I write this post to control my music and system looks terrible for me ...

micro

Fair enough and no need to go further we got each other point of view.... You may need however need to read little more about Roon. I control my music server with my PC or laptop or Tablet or smartphone .. They are not the principal media player although they can and do at time

What do you mean by "mature" audiophiles? us? The over 50 and graying? .

I didn't ignore the facts.. Books could well survive a while. CD, DVD and Physical media in general are gone...

P.S. and OT ....perhaps not
I am an e-book proponent but I've found that references books, and (some) magazines need to be physical for me. Annotations, references and re-reading seems to me easier on those physical books. There is such a thing as ergonomy and to this day, a watch with physical hands is easier to read than the digital things the watch industry tried to impose us once in the 70's and today with the smartwatches (those at least can change faces so ...). It is a matter of ergonomy and the pleasure derived from the experience. If a person finds much pleasure in handling physical media that is his prerogative and no amount of facts will change that. Very difficult experience to quantify.
Over and out , for now.

 

[witchdoctor]

Paulson and Einhorn have lost just over 40% of AUM since their peaks in 2011 and 2014 respectively. Paulson’s portfolio decreased from $13.5 billion to $9.84 billion in the second quarter of 2016 alone. Einhorn lost 2.6% in the second quarter (his sixth consecutive down quarter), with a YTD profit of 0.4%.

What does that tell us? Human beings are lousy predictors of the future.

+1

 

[witchdoctor]

I have Spectral reference electronics at the core of my system and recently ordered their latest SDR 4000SV cd player, but am having some second thoughts because CD's are clearly going to become less important to us audiophiles as streaming advances, although I do have a significant library of both CD's. If I use the logic that I used when I spent at least as much as the SDR 4000SV costs recently on a new VPI table SDS, Benz Micro cartridge, PASS phone stage, Vibraplane, two expensive IC's and AC cords and a new Steve Blinn rack, not to mention a fair amount on new reference vinyl, then I know I should proceed with the SDR 4000SV order.

The Spectral sounds incredible, probably the best CD player I have ever heard, but it has no ability to import other digital signals, meaning that I will have to keep my old DAC for streaming and other digital inputs, and of course buy another set of very expensive MIT cables (either MAX-2 or SHD).

While there is no general answer and it depends on what I value, I would love any input from anyone on this subject in hopes that it will help me clarify my dilemma.

Thanks

Mobiusman, you have 25 pages of advice, what are you going to do?

 

[Al M.]

I didn't ignore the facts.. Books could well survive a while. CD, DVD and Physical media in general are gone...

Again, not true. I can find almost anything I want at Amazon, for example. Even recently I found that Deutsche Grammophon, who I thought had dropped their 20/21 catalog of modern contemporary composers (rather a niche market item) from 10-15 years ago, re-released it in different form -- and yes, again on CD.

 

[witchdoctor]

Again, not true. I can find almost anything I want at Amazon, for example. Even recently I found that Deutsche Grammophon, who I thought had dropped their 20/21 catalog of modern contemporary composers (rather a niche market item) from 10-15 years ago, re-released it in different form -- and yes, again on CD.

I have found Amazon Prime to be wonderful. I have a ton of kindle books, movies I have purchased, movies on Prime right there when I log in. I like the curated station on Prime Music but prefer the SQ of Tidal. If Prime Music started streaming lossless and launched a decent app or integrated with Roon I could drop Tidal too. The key to getting excellent SQ streaming from Amazon was the Asus Xonar U7 soundcard. I can upsample PCM to 192/24 or stream in dolby digital and sounds great.

 

[witchdoctor]

We all live in the present Peter. As I just explained, we were asked not to look at present but the future. And your question did the same with respect to books. For decades my job was to predict the future and govern development of technology in that direction. Back in the DOS days, I got a copy of Windows 1.0. Everything about it was awful except one thing: my wife who was used to a Mac could navigate Windows but would not touch DOS. I saw that and was convinced that we would all migrate to that kind of universe. Sure, I would miss being able to type fast and do things in DOS and not have to constantly reach for the mouse. But the future is the future. We better adopt it and not keep giving contrarian views based on personal preference right here, right now.

I am about to go to CEDIA in a couple of hours. Last night wanted some reading material. Hopped on Amazon and found the book I wanted but it was nearly $150 (engineering book). The e-book version was 30% cheaper and I could have it right then. So that is what I did. I thought about your comment before I bought it. I will think about it when I read it on the plane this afternoon.


I didn't call you that. But anyone who tells someone else to buy an expensive CD-player now, shoulders a big responsibility. I hope you are up to that when you dish out that advice.

Amirm, since you are at CEDIA can you please check out the Auro 3D demos and reply to this post? Thanks

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?21349-Anyone-Going-to-CEDIA-in-Dallas&highlight=cedia

 

[Sammy T]

Vermeer Audio of France, bought up what was left of Audio Aero also a French based company . No CD/ SACD spinners offered from this new company. Only Preamp/ Dac, vacuum tube output. One box combos. I guess you just buy a nice transport if needed, and call it good.

 

[FrantzM]

Again, not true. I can find almost anything I want at Amazon, for example. Even recently I found that Deutsche Grammophon, who I thought had dropped their 20/21 catalog of modern contemporary composers (rather a niche market item) from 10-15 years ago, re-released it in different form -- and yes, again on CD.

People!!!!

That you can find it, doesn't mean it isn't being phased out .. Click here ...One can find 8 mm camera films.. Does that mean they aren't gone? I find and buy from time to time CD and DVDs but would you bet they are alive and well? I don't care much to downlaod music, the economics don't work for me ... I usually buy used CDs and then promptly rip them and have found pristine gems for less than $5 shipping included... Do you see Walkman coming back? or Discman? Would netflix suddenly find itself renting more DVDs and BluRays than movies being streamed? Allow me to have my doubts... The future of media is in the cloud .. Money is already in the Cloud... Some would even say the future of computing is in the Cloud... I don't know yet , I am somewhat reluctant to send everything to the cloud but we are already there however much resistance we may want to propose. "Is it wise to rely so much on the Cloud", could be an interesting question. Perhaps a thread on the matter

 

[853guy]

People!!!!

That you can find it, doesn't mean it isn't being phased out .. Click here ...One can find 8 mm camera films.. Does that mean they aren't gone? I find and buy from time to time CD and DVDs but would you bet they are alive and well? I don't care much to downlaod music, the economics don't work for me ... I usually buy used CDs and then promptly rip them and have found pristine gems for less than $5 shipping included... Do you see Walkman coming back? or Discman? Would netflix suddenly find itself renting more DVDs and BluRays than movies being streamed? Allow me to have my doubts... The future of media is in the cloud .. Money is already in the Cloud... Some would even say the future of computing is in the Cloud... I don't know yet , I am somewhat reluctant to send everything to the cloud but we are already there however much resistance we may want to propose. "Is it wise to rely so much on the Cloud", could be an interesting question. Perhaps a thread on the matter

Again, I'm not very comfortable with predicting the further, Frantz, and for the reasons I've already alluded to in previous posts. However, I respect that you may be, which is of course your prerogative.

Some quick thoughts in defence of the CD:

1) Upon its release, CD became a mass market carrier unlike any we'd seen before (until the MP3). It could be played almost anywhere - cars, boats, planes, portables, high-end home setups, the beach - by anything with a laser drive and did not suffer the physical maladies of vinyl and tape.

2) CD allowed music to rediscover its past. The number of unreleased master tapes archived in vaults of major (and minor) labels that have since been restored, baked, digitally mastered and re-released meant that music long hidden finally had a medium upon which it could reach the masses in ways previously unthinkable. Outtakes, alternative takes, music that for whatever reason was deemed “un-releasable” finally found a new lease of life on CD. All those Coltrane and Miles and Hendrix and Cream and Glenn Gould and Cortot, Thibaud & Casals recordings that have given an historical context for their musical genius, the release of previously unheard interpretations of composers and conductors thought lost to the world… Solely from an musicological perspective, CD has made the landscape for multiple genre’s imminently richer. (I’m thinking for instance of the 1997 release of the Anthology of American Folk Music on CD by Smithsonian Folkways Recordings which allowed the public to appreciate the huge cultural influence of music pre-dating the Great Depression in a way that was previously the domain of bootleggers, not to mention the incredible musical legacy unearthed by Columbia, DG, EMI, Trojan, Impulse, Blue Note, Rykodisc, et al.)

3) CD allowed Classical and Jazz to make for itself a future on indie, specialty and avant-garde labels. Being a music lover during the 90’s and 2000’s was to witness and explosion of new music because of a single mass market format able to accommodate 80 minutes of music, and composers, artists and musicians suddenly found a way to reach audiences in ways vinyl and tape could not.

4) Almost all of the music generated during the last thirty years is available on CD. Extreme metal, cajun, Americana, electonica, roots, blues, reggae, dub, pop, rock, country, alternative, hip hop, rap, experimental, and of course, classical and jazz… Whatever you’re into it’s far more likely that if it was made between 1982 and the late 2000’s, it’s on CD. Given the state of the music industry, it’s possible some of it will only ever be available on CD.

5) It’s estimated there are currently over 200 billion CD’s in circulation, and the oft-repeated mantra that the polycarbonate layer was susceptible to failure hasn’t resulted in the long-term deterioration many expected. Given the number in circulation, CD is relatively much more robust than the formats it “replaced” (handling issues notwithstanding).

6) Japan, Germany and France still have an appetite for CD, with over 80% of music in Japan being sold on physical media.

7) Based solely on anecdotal evidence, some of it shared on this forum here, CD is still revealing new levels of performance from dedicated playback equipment in a similar way vinyl has. Y’know, that other format that “died”.

 

[Jazzhead]

CD's are going to be around , at least till most of us have upped it and gone . I see no slow down in the number of new titles being released on CD or their availability . Could somebody point out a new release from a major artist , which has omitted CD , and been download or file based only . Not yet , there's a ways to go . Yet to hear a Computer based player beat a top notch transport .

 

[bonzo75]

CD's are going to be around , at least till most of us have upped it and gone . I see no slow down in the number of new titles being released on CD or their availability . Could somebody point out a new release from a major artist , which has omitted CD , and been download or file based only . Not yet , there's a ways to go . Yet to hear a Computer based player beat a top notch transport .

You mean like a 2-5k streamer compared to a 20k CDP? Also trend in improvement of streamers every two years, they get much better

 

[Steve Williams]

I agree 853guy

I find this thread merely a reflection of members' feelings.

Frantz you may be right but are you really saying they are truly going to shrivel up and go away

Frantz you have said the same thing about vinyl and it isn't going anywhere

People will be buying CD's for many decades to come. Not everyone is interested in digital files or streaming

Why is that so difficult to comprehend that many people still want to be able to play CD's. If truly they won't be produced any more and there is no interest, I would beg to differ. At the recent Hong Kong Audio show there were more booths playing and selling CD's than I ever saw at a USA audio show

 

[microstrip]

(...) What do you mean by "mature" audiophiles? us? The over 50 and graying? .

I didn't ignore the facts.. Books could well survive a while. CD, DVD and Physical media in general are gone... (...)

Considering a sigma of around 7, yes, your figure of 50 should be a good one.

Why are you adding references to DVDs and general physical media? We are debating CD's, that are not gone at all.

Many countries with large markets still prefer CDs. In Japan, around 80% of revenue comes from CDs, Germany 70% and France 60% (2014 data). Also in some countries the number of sold CDs is decreasing less than suggested by ratios between ratios of revenues - price per recording of physical media decreased, and the sales of virtual music increased.

For may people streaming is taking the place of radio, they even use the play lists created by others or the music suppliers - maximum ease and convenience.

Also, CD buyers can use all the facilities of a digital society to choose their music - we can listen to samples, order online, even accept buying suggestions ...

Even 10% of a several billion industry will be a lot of money - CDs are far from being gone.

 

[analog brother]

yes, today's computer age has allowed me to buy more cd's than ever before.
but my computer is just a tool for communication, business, information, perusal and resourcing.
don't want to bring it anywhere near my stereo or car.

 

[853guy]

I agree 853guy

I find this thread merely a reflection of members' feelings.

Frantz you may be right but are you really saying they are truly going to shrivel up and go away

Frantz you have said the same thing about vinyl and it isn't going anywhere

People will be buying CD's for many decades to come. Not everyone is interested in digital files or streaming

Why is that so difficult to comprehend that many people still want to be able to play CD's. If truly they won't be produced any more and there is no interest, I would beg to differ. At the recent Hong Kong Audio show there were more booths playing and selling CD's than I ever saw at a USA audio show

"Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
- The Compact Disc, Vinyl, Reel-to-Reel (and Cassette)