Lampizator Golden Gate Balanced Playing DSD256 and DSD512

[bonzo75]

Bill, how would you describe the differences between GG and T+A overall when both are being fed optimally?
Or are you covering that in your upcoming review?
Your guests seem to differ in this regard, would like to know your personal opinion.

I don't think we differ. It's horses for courses. The SGM probably works best with T+A with upsampling. The upsampling might not be making as big a difference with GG, and when we there the PCM was set to default upsample rather than native.

So the question is, if someone likes the GG, does he upsample, or not. I am interested in native.

If someone likes the T+A, does he upsample, or not. The answer seems yes

 

[tsaett]

Fair point, maybe I need to be more specific:
The two DACs obviously sound different and as you stated, some might prefer one or the other (assuming DSD512 on the T+A and whatever sounds best with the GG which is apparently less demanding on source format).
Given that Bill has spend much time with both in his own system and with a very good source, I am interested in his personal opinion on the differences he experienced.

If he covers this topic in his review or if this is the wrong place to discuss this, I will wait patiently or ask the question in another thread again respectively

 

[Audiocrack]

Hi Rudolph,

On a Lampi I am not totally sure at this point. With the original dsd engine and importantly PCM engine, I found the delta between the 2 large and thus upsampling to dsd was the way for me back then. When the PCM r2r versions appeared, PCM was profoundly uplifted and virtually on a par with some dsd (not obviously the great dsd recordings that are virtually unparalleled in digital IMHO).

That said, having spent a lot of time now reviewing the SGM server with T+A dac, I can 100% say that the performance of the T+A is monumentally uplifted versus no SGM - this was all @ 512. Tidal to 512 was very much an experience.

Alas I was only able to upsample to double dsd on my GG due to an issue but my GG returns today with 512, just a shame the SGM is now back with new owner. The SGM to double dsd on GG delta was less than the SGM to T+A delta at most rates - i.e. The gains with upsampling on T+A were much larger than the gains on GG.

The technical question for me is whether there is something about different dac topologies that lend themselves more happy to powerful upsampling versus native. That said, whilst other reviewers have stated the r'aison detre of the SGM is the ability to upsample to 512, this is IMHO nonsense. A great server like SGM can perform very well using much lower sampling rates or none. I know of some Total Dac customers experiencing tremendous gains with SGM but not upsampling to high rates at all.

Thanks Bill. So if I understand you correctly you will receive your dsd 512 GG today and will be able to update us soon whether upsampling to dsd 512 betters the quality of the GG sound reproduction?

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks Bill. So if I understand you correctly you will receive your dsd 512 GG today and will be able to update us soon whether upsampling to dsd 512 betters the quality of the GG sound reproduction?

How is he going to upsample to 512 as he no longer has the SGM?

 

[Audiocrack]

How is he going to upsample to 512 as he no longer has the SGM?

No other computer/server available?

 

[wisnon]

When is the superclock coming?

Very soon, I am told.

Should be a fairly easy retrofit too, once L has enuff stock. Greg could install it for sure.

 

[wisnon]

No other computer/server available?

Bill wont have the Superclock though...not yet anyway.
That could very well make a bigger difference. L thinks that native rate playback now beats upsampling as you can now hear the influence of the filters! You must engage filters to upsample.

SGM is apparently stunning on PCM with TotalDac (R2R implementation), so the magic could be more with the server tha anything else.

You will have a tuned Lampi computer, V2 firmware and superclock usb. No need to get into upsampling unless its for curiousity...which you can still do to DSD256 anyway.

 

[Audiocrack]

Bill wont have the Superclock though...not yet anyway.
That could very well make a bigger difference. L thinks that native rate playback now beats upsampling as you can now hear the influence of the filters! You must engage filters to upsample.

SGM is apparently stunning on PCM with TotalDac (R2R implementation), so the magic could be more with the server tha anything else.

You will have a tuned Lampi computer, V2 firmware and superclock usb. No need to get into upsampling unless its for curiousity...which you can still do to DSD256 anyway.

Fair enough. Had more or less decided to skip dsd 512; reading about Bill's dsd 512 update I was just wondering what he expects from (or even better) actually experiences with it. I experienced the importance of a (much) better clock with my Zanden combo and therefore indeed believe the new clock might be (much) more important than the possibility to umsample to dsd 512.

 

[bonzo75]

I also think valves make more difference. I have Elrog now so waiting to decide between px4 and special 45s

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Bill, how would you describe the differences between GG and T+A overall when both are being fed optimally?
Or are you covering that in your upcoming review?
Your guests seem to differ in this regard, would like to know your personal opinion.

Hi,

I will touch on this in the review but not too much as it is really about the SGM rather than differences between GG and T+A driven optimally but in very simple terms as written below - thing is a GG sounds so very different depending on what tubes you like so "optimally setup" really is in the ears of the beholder AND system dependent. I don't subscribe to statement like "the best tubes are..." as that is akin to saying "the best cartridge is" which no normal audiophile would countenance. Those who are all about dynamics and speed will be possibly best served with 242, those who want to kickback and luxuriate in midrange might be suited to Elrog 300b (by accounts not heard yet).

>> Fundamentally if you are predisposed to the GG type sound, then IMHO no ss dac will suffice for you.

T+A (fed by SGM @ 512)
> higher resolution of finest detail including ambient spatial cues - due to lower noise floor imho
> deeper and tighter bass
> deeper and wider soundstage with clearer delineation / layering of instruments although on one occasion with GG and 242 in my system things were unparalleled.

GG (fed by SGM all @ 128 or dsd native and PCM @ 384)
> smoother, richer, and more full bodied sound (from DHT). Customers who crave this will likely not be happy with most ss dacs (T+A inclusive).
> timbre of strings have a slightly sweeter sheen. Cellos and double bass carry a little more body that is perceived as harmonic richness
> little to no fatigue and thoroughly enjoyable

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Thanks Bill. So if I understand you correctly you will receive your dsd 512 GG today and will be able to update us soon whether upsampling to dsd 512 betters the quality of the GG sound reproduction?

Not with hqplayer Rudolph alas as the SGM unit has returned. I can try it out on foobar @ 512 as that requires less power and my computer can handle it with any luck

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I don't think we differ. It's horses for courses. The SGM probably works best with T+A with upsampling. The upsampling might not be making as big a difference with GG, and when we there the PCM was set to default upsample rather than native.

So the question is, if someone likes the GG, does he upsample, or not. I am interested in native.

If someone likes the T+A, does he upsample, or not. The answer seems yes

Yes - that is correct Ked.

 

[tsaett]

T+A (fed by SGM @ 512)
> higher resolution of finest detail including ambient spatial cues - due to lower noise floor imho
> deeper and tighter bass
> deeper and wider soundstage with clearer delineation / layering of instruments although on one occasion with GG and 242 in my system things were unparalleled.

GG (fed by SGM all @ 128 or dsd native and PCM @ 384)
> smoother, richer, and more full bodied sound (from DHT). Customers who crave this will likely not be happy with most ss dacs (T+A inclusive).
> timbre of strings have a slightly sweeter sheen. Cellos and double bass carry a little more body that is perceived as harmonic richness
> little to no fatigue and thoroughly enjoyable

Bill, thank you very much, this helps me bring things in perspective. Looking forward to the review!

 

[bonzo75]

Hi,

I will touch on this in the review but not too much as it is really about the SGM rather than differences between GG and T+A driven optimally but in very simple terms as written below - thing is a GG sounds so very different depending on what tubes you like so "optimally setup" really is in the ears of the beholder AND system dependent. I don't subscribe to statement like "the best tubes are..." as that is akin to saying "the best cartridge is" which no normal audiophile would countenance. Those who are all about dynamics and speed will be possibly best served with 242, those who want to kickback and luxuriate in midrange might be suited to Elrog 300b (by accounts not heard yet).

>> Fundamentally if you are predisposed to the GG type sound, then IMHO no ss dac will suffice for you.

T+A (fed by SGM @ 512)
> higher resolution of finest detail including ambient spatial cues - due to lower noise floor imho
> deeper and tighter bass
> deeper and wider soundstage with clearer delineation / layering of instruments although on one occasion with GG and 242 in my system things were unparalleled.

GG (fed by SGM all @ 128 or dsd native and PCM @ 384)
> smoother, richer, and more full bodied sound (from DHT). Customers who crave this will likely not be happy with most ss dacs (T+A inclusive).
> timbre of strings have a slightly sweeter sheen. Cellos and double bass carry a little more body that is perceived as harmonic richness
> little to no fatigue and thoroughly enjoyable

> deeper and wider soundstage with clearer delineation / layering of instruments although on one occasion with GG and 242 in my system things were unparalleled.
The bolded part was also native, and not upsampled by default to 384. That will change the points on resolution, bass, dynamics, I think.

> timbre of strings have a slightly sweeter sheen. Cellos and double bass carry a little more body that is perceived as harmonic richness.

Btw, Cellos were outstanding in the last shootout we did with PX4. Surprisingly better than anything else. Without, of course, losing out on any other tone. But for some reason the difference on the Bach Cello on Mike Valentine's Chasing the Dragon was drastic.

 

[Sablon Audio]

Not with hqplayer Rudolph alas as the SGM unit has returned. I can try it out on foobar @ 512 as that requires less power and my computer can handle it with any luck

If you like Bill, you can have my SGM back for another play once your GG is settled down again after its update?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

If you like Bill, you can have my SGM back for another play once your GG is settled down again after its update?

Hi Mark,

That is very kind of you -> will take you up on that offer - any reason to get that lovely machine back in my room is gratefully received.

Rudolph - we are back on then

 

[Audiocrack]

Hi Mark,

That is very kind of you -> will take you up on that offer - any reason to get that lovely machine back in my room is gratefully received.

Rudolph - we are back on then

Sounds good. Please keep up posted. Did I understand Wisnon correctly that your GG updates do not include a better clock, Bill?

 

[wisnon]

I also think valves make more difference. I have Elrog now so waiting to decide between px4 and special 45s

Do you have the Tak recti?

AL is over the moon about that and NOS WE 274b. The soundstage expansion (in all directions) and the sense of holography is what stands out for him.

 

[wisnon]

Sounds good. Please keep up posted. Did I understand Wisnon correctly that your GG updates do not include a better clock, Bill?

No, but he can likely get a retroft in the UK.

Edit, he actually may have it. Lukasz needs to check. if not retrofit is possible with the UK tech.

 

[bonzo75]

Do you have the Tak recti?

AL is over the moon about that and NOS WE 274b. The soundstage expansion (in all directions) and the sense of holography is what stands out for him.

Me want. Planning to. Let me know if anyone wants to sell