The best digital and analog have never been closer...and never further apart?

asiufy

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The confusion comes from the fact that the word "streaming" is used in multiple situations. One can be streaming from Tidal/Qobuz, or one can stream from a carefully selected rip of an amazing sounding CD.
Both are "streams", and the act, "streaming", but guess which one has a better chance of sounding amazing, no matter what gear it's played on?
 

Al M.

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Alex, finally we're getting to it. Because unless I've missed something on the 4000+ posts thread on the Extreme, very little if anything has commented how you just have. All I see is unanimity in praise, which I fully get. Nothing on that thread, or other threads supporting streaming, has described what you have just done.

I guess the next time I hear the Extreme at Barry, we can stick to current contemporary predominantly digitally mastered material that Barry contends sounds great.

And yes, Genesis can be immersive. "Fountain Of Salmacis" on vinyl.

Yes, if you rely solely on web streaming you may not get the best version.

A friend commented to me on how much better the version of Gil Evans' "Out of the Cool" sounds that I recommended than what's available on Tidal/Quobuz. It also sounds better than the old CD that he brought over to my house:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006O9MEVO/
(It also has nice bonus tracks)

For this reason alone, that the best version is not always available, I would never solely rely on web streaming for digital.
 

asiufy

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Tidal/Qobuz are great for collection building, finding new stuff, researching, even playing those "guilty pleasures" late at night! But I never thought it to be the be all, end all of digital formats. Convenient? Hell ya. Best sound? Very rarely...
A good first step would be if they included a little more provenance information with each album, so at least we'd know what version of the album you're actually listening to!
 
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Alrainbow

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To nail my colours to the mast...I'm a vinyl man first and foremost, for all the time-honoured, over-documented reasons.
But unlike 90% of vinylistas, I went thru many years where my CDs sounded better than my LPs, indeed I de-programmed from the blind belief that digital was always worse, and indeed came to, and to this day still do, contend that the best digital runs vinyl close, beats it in some areas, and indeed cd can be hugely engaging, with no "but if..." caveats.
So far indeed, that my cdp performance spurred me on to maxx out my analog, and now I have great sound from both formats. For my part, the difference in preference is now more down to mastering choices (my Miles "Nefertiti" on lp slays cd, his "On The Corner" romps it on cd) than any more esoteric reasons of vinyl not being a chopped-up waveform, or cd not being limited to only 70-90dB dynamic range.
A great example of my format agnosticism was Blue58 playing a 96kHz version of Nina Simone thru his SGM server, and to this day it gets my vote as most alive piece of music I've heard on a stereo...my vote for digital as a vinyl man.
So, for my part, digital and vinyl now converge in many ways. My cdp is so archetype-free, so tone dense, so timbral faithful, that other than the very worst cds, I never miss my tt when playing cd.
Of course this extends to other great digital.
And my analog setup, in conjunction with the greatest tts out there, really outperforms on micro resolution, bass extension etc, ie where cd traditionally excels.
I feel there is a true convergence of the best of analog and digital that never existed in the 80s or 90s, or even early 00s.
However, as this convergence is establishing, there is a parallel divergence, and its centred around how the best cutting edge digital, and analog, deal with masterings of varying quality/provenance.
This was brought into sharp focus by my time at Blue58 with his newly-acquired Extreme streamer.
So much music on it had all the hallmarks of not just great digital, but the best analog. It's eerie near zero noise floor surely only rivalled by the uber echelon of tts with air bearings, air LT arms. I've "heard" (or is that "not heard") the Vyger tt with multiple levels of air isolation, and the Extreme felt like the nearest digital equivalent. From this silence arose massive resolution including the kind again reserved for the best analog, ie micro cues, studio acoustic, filigree shimmer. Again, the Extreme seemed like the first digital to proudly walk amongst the big beasts of analog. I'd be hard pressed to differentiate low level resolution of the Extreme from the great demos I've been at of SME 20 and 30, Vyger, GP Monaco 1.5, Bergmann Sindre.
And of course, the whole listening experience has to spring from resolution. On this checklist, Extreme seems a radical breakthrough product.
But where I believe there is a divergence, and ironically it's fuelled by Extreme's uber resolution talents, is that where vinyl, incl high resolution examples like Vyger etc, sound stellar on stellar mastered vinyl, vinyl sounds across the board so much warmer and more immersive on mid-fi masterings. I've yet to hear a top tt not allow stuff like 70s Miles Davis, prog and fusion, 80s and 90s metal, to sound immersive and textured/palpable, even if not uber impressive.
When I visited The General to hear Vyger/Red Sparrow/Mayers/Azzolina Sferas tt/tubes/horns system, and we played my compromised Rush and moderately flatly recorded Weather Report, the sound bloomed in the air. Better recorded stuff sounded stratospheric, as you'd expect from a great tt.
Play these mid fi masters thru the Extreme, and the game is up Lol.
Now, my initial conclusion is to agree with owner Barry and designer Emile, and another owner who posted a long review of the unit...Extreme just says it as it is, if the message is unpalatable, don't blame the messenger.
But how can this stuff sound so much more enjoyable, and with just as much detail resolved, on a top tt?
And thus, my question is posed...top analog and digital closer than ever on the things they said in 80s could never be achieved on digital...but this very breakthrough on digital possibly creates a divergence on which medium is palatable across the range of masters out there.
(One caveat...I'm not picking on Extreme, a few months back I heard a custom server with bespoke OS, and the same attributes audible).
Top digital and analog...closer than ever, but greater contrasts developing.

Some Digital recordings have always bested analog ..!
Some analog recordings have always bested digital ..!

Pity the audiophile who limits himself .... :)
 

Elliot G.

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Jul 22, 2010
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Tidal/Qobuz are great for collection building, finding new stuff, researching, even playing those "guilty pleasures" late at night! But I never thought it to be the be all, end all of digital formats. Convenient? Hell ya. Best sound? Very rarely...
A good first step would be if they included a little more provenance information with each album, so at least we'd know what version of the album you're actually listening to!
Qobuz does give you info on the discs and gives you choices of the resolution if they have different ones. Roon shows you all of the choices so if I have it in my library and the tidal and Qobuz additions as well
 

ayreman

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Jan 2, 2017
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The bigger point I guess I'm making is that likely more than vinyl, the provenance of Tidal/Qobuz masters really matters with Extreme, maybe more than any other server out there.
spiritofmusic, you've hit the nail on the head with this on. The "garbage in-garbage out" principle works with Extreme more than anywhere else. If you listen on Extreme to remastered and compressed crap from Qobuz - of course you will never enjoy music! What you need to do, for instance, in the case with Rush is to lay your hands on Rush CDs pressed before 1993, rip them accurately and THEN listen to those uncompressed rips. The sound will put any vynil to shame.
My source is at least equal (but, likely better) to Extreme and when I play rips of CDs pressed in the 80s in W.Germany or UK, no vinyl can come close. But try playing a rip from any remaster - and omg... you want to turn that nastiness off immediately! And, naturally, in the latter case vinyl (with higher, uncompressed DR) will win. Simple and elegant truth.
 

Audiophile Bill

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spiritofmusic, you've hit the nail on the head with this on. The "garbage in-garbage out" principle works with Extreme more than anywhere else. If you listen on Extreme to remastered and compressed crap from Qobuz - of course you will never enjoy music! What you need to do, for instance, in the case with Rush is to lay your hands on Rush CDs pressed before 1993, rip them accurately and THEN listen to those uncompressed rips. The sound will put any vynil to shame.
My source is at least equal (but, likely better) to Extreme and when I play rips of CDs pressed in the 80s in W.Germany or UK, no vinyl can come close. But try playing a rip from any remaster - and omg... you want to turn that nastiness off immediately! And, naturally, in the latter case vinyl (with higher, uncompressed DR) will win. Simple and elegant truth.

What is your digital source, Ayreman?
 

spiritofmusic

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spiritofmusic, you've hit the nail on the head with this on. The "garbage in-garbage out" principle works with Extreme more than anywhere else. If you listen on Extreme to remastered and compressed crap from Qobuz - of course you will never enjoy music! What you need to do, for instance, in the case with Rush is to lay your hands on Rush CDs pressed before 1993, rip them accurately and THEN listen to those uncompressed rips. The sound will put any vynil to shame.
My source is at least equal (but, likely better) to Extreme and when I play rips of CDs pressed in the 80s in W.Germany or UK, no vinyl can come close. But try playing a rip from any remaster - and omg... you want to turn that nastiness off immediately! And, naturally, in the latter case vinyl (with higher, uncompressed DR) will win. Simple and elegant truth.
Ayreman, I'm no cheerleader for Extreme, but your claim to have a better digital front end is quite bold Lol. And I'll take your comments on digital Rush beating vinyl Rush with the proverbial mine of salt.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Maybe he's got the €95k Lessloss Laminar streamer...
 

spiritofmusic

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Reading about it is all one can do. And that's one report only.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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like i said, analog transfers are all suspect as a source for digital truth. too many twists and turns. you never know what you are dealing with.

which does not mean you can't want a particular transfer to sound a certain way, but then the big picture gets skewed.
 

spiritofmusic

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I gather as much now.
 

ayreman

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What is your digital source, Ayreman?
As stated in my signature, it is bespoke. There is no name or brand that I can use. Thus, I think I'll let the pics do the talking. For those who know what they are looking at, of course...
 

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ayreman

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Needless to say, the USB output has its own linear PS (see the pics).
 

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Audiophile Bill

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Needless to say, the USB output has its own linear PS (see the pics).

I see you are big fan of the Audyn caps. I like them a lot too. The true copper in particular but even their MKP is decent for cheaper applications I found.
 
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ayreman

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I'll take your comments on digital Rush beating vinyl Rush with the proverbial mine of salt.
I never stated that any digital Rush beats vinyl Rush. What I'm saying is Rush German CD pressings made before 1992 beat vinyl. Get the difference?
 

ayreman

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I see you are big fan of the Audyn caps. I like them a lot too. The true copper in particular but even their MKP is decent for cheaper applications I found.
Yes indeed, I can't make a step without true copper maxes. The size of Duelunds being so forbidding...
 

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