More on the Q5s

[phillipK]

Frank, a bit difficult to argue anything if facts will be constantly ignored. The Q5, whatever you like its bass or not, has more output at 15Hz, in respect to its own average SPL, then just about any other loudspeaker Stereophile has ever measured (That is on its own, unlike speakers with added powered bass).

Brian, I notice it is a common to accuse any fan of Magico as Alon Wolf (He must have a lot of extra time on his hand...) With such limited fan base, I wonder how they manage to survive

 

[brianherlihy]

Hi PhillipK - no harm meant, i bought his product so i am obviously a fan of his work

 

[FrantzM]

Frank, a bit difficult to argue anything if facts will be constantly ignored. The Q5, whatever you like its bass or not, has more output at 15Hz, in respect to its own average SPL, then just about any other loudspeaker Stereophile has ever measured (That is on its own, unlike speakers with added powered bass).

Brian, I notice it is a common to accuse any fan of Magico as Alon Wolf (He must have a lot of extra time on his hand...) With such limited fan base, I wonder how they manage to survive

For the record, I have NOT heard the Q5. I am pondering though. My position on speakers nowadays is that I will ALWAYS use multiple subs in 2-ch with any speaker regardless of intrinsic bass ability so in itself a lack of bass gusto is not such a problem especially when the speaker under consideration seems to do the other aspects of music reproduction admirably. So this out of the way... Let me address your post. It is possible that the Q5 output at 15 Hz is exceptional. I however would like to know what would be the response at a a high SPL level l or at least at what level it is capable of such great feat. One reason I really like the measurements of SoundStage where the response is measured at different average SPL... It is one thing to be able to do 10 Hz at 65 dB and another to do it cleanly at 100 dB...I must say I am very impressed by the Q5 FR linearity
My conclusion and barring proper audition of this speaker: It seems to require subs. I am not also in love with 84 dB of sensitivity, nor with such tortuous impedance curve.

P.S. MF review, I find very balanced and extremely positive , just for the record

 

[microstrip]

True High Fidelity is about the full range of frequencies the ear and body can perceive and in that sense the reproduction of the lower bass is the what truly separates the SOTA from the not-bad-at-all.

Frantz,
Although I understand what you mean, I must formally disagree with this sentence. You will never reach the absolute perfection, the state of the art is still an engineering term to mean the best we can reach with current technique. High Fidelity in broad terms means reproduction of sound in domestic environment (non professional) with high quality. Although lower bass is desirable, we can not consider that it is the only or critical key point to consider we reach the best.

Considering the Q5, that I heard only for less than half an hour in an unknown environment, I still do not have an opinion about them. But I think that the real question should be why a speaker that has such a good frequency measurement published in Stereophile - better than other speakers that are considered acceptable - seems for some people "bass shy".

 

[Robert]

Brian,

I am glad that you are enjoying your speakers. It sounds like you did your research, listened, and made an informed choice. You may have them set-up very well, and have optimized the sound to suit your room, components, and musical tastes. I don't want to take anything away from your enthusiasm, nor put any bugs in your ear.

My intent is to point-out that people need to go listen for themselves and be critical. Clear your mind of preconceived notions when going for an audition. Measurements do not tell the story, nor do reviewers who often copy the 'copy', verbatim. I don't really know what other people have said about the bass, except for what I experienced in regards to my own priorities. Proper bass is very difficult to achieve, and even harder to define. Most people have far too much of it, so there is more to going low and being loud. The Q5 does throw a very impressive soundstage behind the speaker and beyond the boundaries of the room.

 

[ack]

The Q5, whatever you like its bass or not, has more output at 15Hz, in respect to its own average SPL, then just about any other loudspeaker Stereophile has ever measured

May I ask how you know this, and what do you attribute this alleged "issue" with the speaker not being able to effectively reproduce kickdrum, something I have also pointed out as well?

 

[FrantzM]

microstrip

I am not sure I meant that the SOTA speakers systems out there are perfect... I repeat that SOTA speakers system are for the most part full range. Actually I am yet to see a top of the line of any manufacturer purporting to be an attempt at the SOTA that is not so ... High Fidelity is that: fidelity as high as possible to the source and for that the whole range of what can be heard should be reproduced else, it is not that high a fidelity.

It is entirely possible for a speaker to measure great at a given average SPL and poorly at higher levels. ( I will look into Soundstage since they seem to be one of the few to adhere to such measurements protocol... Calling Jeff Fritz to the rescue here ) Dynamic linearity is not a given for most speakers. Power compression manifest itself in many a speaker, inclusing some very expensive models. Again not saying the Q5 exhibit unusual amount of this for sure I don't know but this lack of "visceral" bass power is in my experience a sure sign of limited bass dynamic linearity.
Boy it seems very much I have a case against the Q5. IT is NOT so... I will repeat that I have nothing against it and frankly feel that I should have reserved my remarks until I heard it ... but there are certain things that can be inferred from reviews and measurements.. Call them hunches.. they are definitely speculations until one has auditioned the speaker in a proper setting

 

[Ron Party]

Lower bass is not just desirable, it is absolutely essential if we are talking about SOTA (and not just a flavor choice). Techniques are and for some time have been readily available to meet this essential requirement. Audiophiles have been slow on the uptake to incorporate these techniques into their 2 channel environments, but thankfully we are seeing an increase in awareness of the ability to satisfy this essential requirement.

I think of low bass in the same way I think of black levels when assessing picture quality. I call it *punch*. Frantz is spot on.

 

[mauidan]

How big are the bass drivers on the Q5

Two 9" woofers, one 9" mid-bass driver

 

[microstrip]

Frantz, Ron and interested members,

Thanks. But we need to put some numbers to make it clear. Recently he had a thread about "How loud is loud?" , and although very interesting it was not conclusive about audiophile listening levels.

The only absolute reference I have is from a CD from PGM that refers that to recreate a realistic level in a recording of Buxtehude Cantatas we should have a peak SPL 89 dB A weighted during the first 10 seconds of track one. Perfect reproducible conditions, as I have a RTA with peak function.

What are the peak levels you are speaking about and at what frequencies? Can you refer some recordings easily accessible and respective peak conditions?

Like this we would know if we are playing the same game.

 

[FrantzM]

Microstrip

Let me step aside from the Q5 in the discussion. Some speakers will not play loud however much you push them. One of the most famous in this regard was the Quad ESL 63 which by the way had a circuit that would prevent it from playing too loud. Many speakers power compress, IOW are not linear dynamically and that is a known fact....
I am fond of saying that it is possible for tweeter to play bass.. You can EQ it and bring it to your ears and it may likely play bass and likely flat to 20 Hz if needs be... It may not be the best transducer for the purpose but you get my point.
I really would like Jeff Fritz to chime in and show us measurements that show a speaker response changing with average SPL. SoundStage has such in their web site. I am maybe too lazy to go search it .
Now concerning the subjective quality of bass. Back in the days and for those who have experienced it, there are few if any speakers who get the mid bass as right as Dunleavy designs and this from the day of Duntech which with all their fault had a midbass presence, veracity (my own term) and authority that has to be experienced to be understood... The Dunleavy brnaded speakers measured well and some model did delve in the low bass with ease. The Duntech even the top of the line did not but their midbass was that: authoritative and to this day , I have not heard many speakers that approach it.. The Dunleavy designs give you that "chest" thing on musical material that also does that to you ... Drums for example are as much felt as heard and not all speakers carry that feeling .. The Dunleavy designs did and yes the better Wilson and yes almost all THe Rockport I have heard (the newer models Mira, Anquila, etc and likely the Altair from all accounts) and Yes the Evolution Acoustic, there are other speakers those came to mind, Magnepan 20 and 3.6with powerful amp and care i placement...etc... I don't know if the Q5 do .. I have not heard them.

I am interested in that CD. Could you give us more information about it? Back in the days, I think there was a Philips LP of Paul Mauriat that had similar information ...

 

[Gregadd]

The problem of course is that we are so used to hearing boomy bass that when we here it correctly we think the bass is shy.

 

[FrantzM]

The problem of course is that we are so used to hearing boomy bass that when we here it correctly we think the bass is shy.

The Bass from the Dunleavy was not "boomy". I would not characterize that from the list of speakers I mentioned to be "boomy" either ... The bass from the Wilson Alexandria which I am sure you have heard is far, very far from "boomy"

 

[Ron Party]

I think Greg's point is true for many people and many speakers. But when one hears bass done right, there's no going back. It does not surprise me whatsoever to read Frantz's oft-repeated praise for the Geddes multiple subwoofer placement methodology. Indeed over the past few days we're reading that Carl has just adopted this approach with great success.

 

[microstrip]

I am interested in that CD. Could you give us more information about it? Back in the days, I think there was a Philips LP of Paul Mauriat that had similar information ...

PGM (Pro Gloria Musicae) is a small label founded by the late Gabe Wiener, specialized in ancient music, recorded with high quality.Gabe was especially interested in unrecorded Baroque music. I found Gabe Wiener in the middle 90's in the rec.audio.pro newsgroups, where he had a very active and proficuous role, you can see his 1995 audiopro manifesto at http://www.pgm.com/pro-audio-list/listinfo.txt . Later I even bough some high end audiophile equipment he needed no more for his studio and a few CDs from his label. Much later I was really very sorry to know of his abrupt passing at such young age.

His CDs had very good technical notes on the recording and some advise on how to get a realistic playing level with an expensive sound meter. I own the first two issues and you can find them at all at http://scu2.pgm.com/catalog/

 

[Jeff Fritz]

I really would like Jeff Fritz to chime in and show us measurements that show a speaker response changing with average SPL. SoundStage has such in their web site. I am maybe too lazy to go search it .

Deviation from Linearity:

Revel Salon2 does not compress in the bass at 90dB:
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/revel_ultima_salon2/

The little NHT Xd system does:
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/speakers/nht_xd/

Extreme examples, yes, but the point is that larger drivers and more of them will lead to cleaner bass with all else being equal. (It should be noted that the NHT is likely limited in output partially because of EQ'ing.)

 

[microstrip]

Deviation from Linearity

Jeff,

Interesting, but only measured from 50 Hz upwards

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Jeff,

Interesting, but only measured from 50 Hz upwards

Yes but you can glean from it what is going on with the loudspeaker. It's not going to look bettter lower -- look at the distortion measurements for a fuller picture. See how they're trending? I don't think power compression is a difficult problem to overcome: better drivers and more of them, assuming you don't have crossover components saturating or anything. But that takes bigger speakers and more money.

 

[mauidan]

For folks who don't get Stereophile, the Q5 review is now up on their website:

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/magico_q5_loudspeaker/

 

[RBFC]

Interesting that some are inferring from the review that the Magicos don't have "visceral impact", yet the reviewer freely admits that he sets up other speakers to have prominent bass boost. So, it seems that we are left to interpret what the Q5 really sounds like by "guessing" what it would do with bass-reinforcing room positioning.

Apples to apples, PLEASE audio reviewers.

Lee