Objectivist or Subjectivist? Give Me a Break

(...) If I were doing null tests on audio circuits today, I'd probably use a digital-based system (ADCs and DACs) to collect samples and then post-process to see how deep the null. That would make level and phase matching much easier, and also allow one to calibrate out the conversion chain, at least to the noise floor.

Don,

You are cheating! ;)

We must go back to the breadboard with a single very high quality op-amp, a ten-turn trim pot and a few resistors (it seems this type of pot I often use has some miraculous properties that I was not aware about) and do our homework with a generator and an oscilloscope.

Anyone interested in the electronics needed for null techniques and its problems can start with the Analog Devices datasheet INSTRUMENTATION AMPLIFIER (IN-AMP) BASICS MT-061 Tutorial and references inside it:

http://www.analog.com/en/content/glp_INAMPS_MT-061/fca.html
 
Not in this context - as I understand the discussion here its the 'N' component in the 'THD+N' measurement.



You might wish to check you've turned up at the correct lecture theatre next time before delivering your homily :D

Incidentally what you spoke of in your second-to-last paragraph is called 'stochastic resonance'. Perhaps the prof you're referring to is Bart Kosko?

Just because you didn't pay attention in class and flunked the exam doesn't mean you don't have to pay the tuition. My advice, take the makeup course next summer. I'm sure you'll get a passing grade :D
 
You still haven't said where you are in all this "Professor". At least "The Audio Expert" has, even if many here, myself included, don't believe everything he says. So how's about it? You are clearly in neither extreme. Are you somewhere in between or someplace else altogether?
 
Don,
.........., a ten-turn trim pot and a few resistors (it seems this type of pot I often use has some miraculous properties that I was not aware about) ..........
Agreed, the magic JuJu suggested for this pot makes me think it is being smoked, not turned :)
 
In an ideal power amp the voltage at the speaker terminals will remain constant regardless of the load.

True but irrelevant as we're talking about real world amps - an ideal amp will have zero distortion, zero noise and no phase shift at all so will be capabable of at least a -100dB null. Case closed.

Obviously this rules out tube amps, but good solid state amps come awfully close to this ideal.

How close, in your experience?

Or maybe I misread your point? Of course, the resistance of the voice coil is the main limiting factor for achieving a super high damping factor.

Actually its not at all relevant to the damping factor which is calculated from the amp's output impedance, assuming the speaker presents an 8ohm load.
 
Isn't that what I've said about eight times in this thread so far? Including the idea of averaging to get a null deeper than the noise floor. But no matter.

Such a strategy is flawed from the outset anyway. If everyone knows that digital sounds "steely", then how can it be used as proof of perfection?

Sorry to give offense; as I said someplace I have not had a lot of time for WBF so tend to respond to just the last post or three. This is a long thread. Perhaps you could take it as confirmation rather than an attack on your credibility?

No point in arguing the merits of a digital measuring system in this thread, I am thinking.
 
You still haven't said where you are in all this "Professor". At least "The Audio Expert" has, even if many here, myself included, don't believe everything he says. So how's about it? You are clearly in neither extreme. Are you somewhere in between or someplace else altogether?

You talkin' ta me dude?? :cool:

Not so easy to pigeonhole everyone into one neat slot or another. I'd be what you'd call an objectivist...if the measurements correlated well with what I hear. But they don't. The science is flawed, incomplete, has mistakes. Proof? Easy. Equipment that measures the same can sound different. Example of a one small step for engineers, one giant leap for audiophiles? The discovery of TIM. Of course it was deliberately made to seem so complex it would sound impressive in ad copy. But to engineers who understood gain bandwidth product the concept of TIM comes as no surprise. They're related like first cousins. So does that make me a subjectivist? Well all sensory perception is subjective. But to my subjective ears, no equipment I've heard sounds like live music which is what I enjoy most and expect. Now when sound systems were a few hundred dollars or a few thousand at most I could overlook the obvious shortcomings of the equipment, the concepts, the whole thing. Besides they promised things would get better. But today with systems costing in the tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands and still not sounding anything like live music to me, all I can say is the subjectivists don't seem to have much in the way of answers either. All I know is they rave about one piece of equipment after another....and then they trade up for something "better." The equipment is hardly out of the box before they're shopping for its replacement. So if these guys want to sell their wares for a few hundred I suppose I could put up with some of it but for the kind of money they want? Faggadeboudit.

So what does that make me, an objectivist or a subjectivist? Neither? Both? What difference does it make...so long as it doesn't make me an audiophile. ;)
 
---Don, I don't read Groucho as you did.

* Forums are so much different than real life discussions. ...Many times people get banned all for just the wrong reasons, and just because they exposed the truth that others can't handle. ...Story of my life and my friends' life ....
 
You talkin' ta me dude?? :cool:

Not so easy to pigeonhole everyone into one neat slot or another. I'd be what you'd call an objectivist...if the measurements correlated well with what I hear. But they don't. The science is flawed, incomplete, has mistakes. Proof? Easy. Equipment that measures the same can sound different. Example of a one small step for engineers, one giant leap for audiophiles? The discovery of TIM. Of course it was deliberately made to seem so complex it would sound impressive in ad copy. But to engineers who understood gain bandwidth product the concept of TIM comes as no surprise. They're related like first cousins. So does that make me a subjectivist? Well all sensory perception is subjective. But to my subjective ears, no equipment I've heard sounds like live music which is what I enjoy most and expect. Now when sound systems were a few hundred dollars or a few thousand at most I could overlook the obvious shortcomings of the equipment, the concepts, the whole thing. Besides they promised things would get better. But today with systems costing in the tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands and still not sounding anything like live music to me, all I can say is the subjectivists don't seem to have much in the way of answers either. All I know is they rave about one piece of equipment after another....and then they trade up for something "better." The equipment is hardly out of the box before they're shopping for its replacement. So if these guys want to sell their wares for a few hundred I suppose I could put up with some of it but for the kind of money they want? Faggadeboudit.

So what does that make me, an objectivist or a subjectivist? Neither? Both? What difference does it make...so long as it doesn't make me an audiophile. ;)

Yeah dude, I was talkin' to you and I don't pigeon hole. That's why I asked. ;) Couldn't care less what you consider yourself actually. The non-dogmatic, which actually makes up the bulk of folks here, are well aware of real world limitations. The equal opportunity bashing bit is cute but says nothing new. What might be of interest is what you've actually managed to put together and why. You know, what compromises you've made since "Live" is impossible now and for the foreseeable future.
 
"Live" happens only once, if ever. That future would require a time machine. LOL.

In my view sound reproduction is real. It is an experience in its own right, a distinct event. How closely it hews to the original event is, to me, of no import. How it sounds as an event on its own does because I have some control over that. :)

Why do I get the feeling we are saying the same thing, just differently?
 
---...And often Live music is worst than reproduction at home!

Like a Folk, or Rock concert where your seat is bad, real bad, and the sound is simply awful, all over, and full of reverbs and all that very bad jazz...

We are Music and Movie lovers because we are smart first; we know that all Live venues are less than ideal.
Home is where we perfect our trade. :b

We balance equally the subjective with the objective, and we always pursue our own degree of perfection.
Try to do that at a Live music concert! You might get lucky once in a while (in particular if you purchase your seat in advance and you choose it, like at a Classical concert hall), but you are slave to whatever happens afterwards.
...For the worst and the better.

Music reproduction can surpass Live music. ...You know what I mean.
 
By the way, people who are saying that R2R tapes (at the right speed; 15"ps), and LPs (at the right speed; 45rpm) sound better than CDs, are they living on another planet called Analogue? Are they too subjectivist?

As I've explained, some people prefer the slight distortion and grunge added by analog mediums. Professional recording engineers use plug-ins to add such an effect, and I've done that myself using a Tape Simulator plug-in. But once the recording sounds as the engineer and artist intend, further grunge from the distribution medium is not useful or desirable.

Ethan, what is the very Best sounding audio medium? ...Objectively.

Digital, of course, easily proven with science and measurements.

--Ethan
 
Your original statement is that null testing (an objective measurement) can prove that two devices are audibly the same & audibly transparent. You cite 80dB as the value that will qualify!

Yes, 80 dB is enough to ensure that two sources sound the same.

If you cannot achieve this null in your own tests of the playback system, you are therefore not able to objectively verify that two playback systems are identical sounding.

Adding a room and speakers only obfuscates the null test because it adds other factors outside the devices being compared. For example, room background noise from air handlers and passing traffic outside could easily prevent a deeper null. If the test is for, say, two sound cards, then adding a room and speaker only pollutes the data.

Otherwise your statement remains in the land of speculation & proves nothing!

Until you email me your choices for the three sets of test files I linked to, my statement holds much merit. If you can't prove me wrong with actual evidence, then you have nothing but empty words.

This is no different to using THD as an objective measure of audibility - sometimes two devices that have the same THD will sound the same & sometimes they won't. Therefore THD is an agreed useless objective measurement with regard to audibility.

If two devices have the same level and spectrum of THD and IMD, then they will sound the same.

Why cite null testing as "proof" of anything audible & why then cite a value of 80dB which you cannot achieve (for the output from speakers)?

LOL, you are so grasping at straws! I just mentioned in passing that the best null I was able to achieve acoustically through speakers was about 50 dB. You conveniently ignored my other point that I've achieved total nulls with other sources in audio editor software.

--Ethan
 
Yes, 80 dB is enough to ensure that two sources sound the same.

Adding a room and speakers only obfuscates the null test because it adds other factors outside the devices being compared. For example, room background noise from air handlers and passing traffic outside could easily prevent a deeper null. If the test is for, say, two sound cards, then adding a room and speaker only pollutes the data.

--Ethan
We all listen to our audio systems in rooms so you can't ignore it & claim that it distorts the null. Fact of the matter if you can't show the null of 80dB (your benchmark figure), you can't prove anything about audibility with this measurement. Your attempts to shift to subjective measurements are proof that you are being self-contradictory & unable to stand over your statements about this measurement.
 
For awhile, this was the best thread. It was like....everythread...seems like everything that mattered was knocking around in this one thread without a whole lot of animosity or one upsmanship. It has devolved. It is now numbingly pedantic. A bump in the noise floor.

Where did you achieve 80 dB nulls, Ethan? Please show us again and end the pain...

Tim
 

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