Audiophile Guru Syndrome

[morricab]

The only people alienated are those who don't (or don't want to) have the technical understanding to know that the ability of sets to adequately drive the bass units of most speakers is highly compromised.

Regardless of what you hear - this is an undeniable fact & if that alienates people - that is their problem....

No, it's the problem of people ignoring psychoacoustics for technical 'facts'. The fact is that bass distortion is far less audible than higher up the frequency spectrum and that a lot of bass 'texture' is not bass at all and is fact from the region where SETs excel. The perception of bass quality has to include both the actual bass and the overtones, string slaps, kick drum impacts etc. and not just how pure the frequency below 80hz is.

 

[Rensselaer]

The only people alienated are those who don't (or don't want to) have the technical understanding to know that the ability of sets to adequately drive the bass units of most speakers is highly compromised.

Regardless of what you hear - this is an undeniable fact & if that alienates people - that is their problem....

The musical presentation from a system relies in no way on the listeners’ technical understanding, however their perception might.

Devon Turnbull showed us with his massive Ojas bass speaker that all you need to get all the bass you want from SETs is to obtain the correct speaker for the job.

 

[andromedaaudio]

People should leave the thinking to reviewers lol.


Look i buy / make a home stereo system for entertainment.
There is no more to it lol

 

[morricab]

Hi Everyone

Yes,everyone is entitled to have a opinion and that’s great and nobody knows it all.There are experts in certain fields,also in audio with many years of experience.

I came to this side to learn.

Even if people have different opions,we should respect the other opinion,we don’t have to share them.This is what got lost in the last years.We are humans and should treat others like humans,with respect and dignity .

Education is a problem in many many countries,that makes me really sad.I was looking at how much the government’s spent on education the other day and especially in Germany is just shocking and what surprised me ,that some small poor countries spend so much more.In my company’s,I got people from 55 different countries and if you think they are mostly German,no they are not,because the education in my native country is not what it should be,especially in the ladt 30 years.

I just asking, please don’t attack everybody personally if you don’t agree.Attack the problem,not the person.

We should be here to share our love for our hobby,not hate and disrespect and anger towards others.

These are not my words,but somebody’s else’s words .Human without humanity are not humans but only Homo sapiens.Human should mean wise man apparently.

Lets forget our differences,but let join in humanity and show we are real humans.

Cheers

Who attacked you personally? I only see challenges to your ideas...unless you perceive that as a personal attack?

 

[Music and Wine]

Hi Morricab

Thanks for your opinion.

Great to have you here,somebody with insight into complex things

I listen to the fuses for a long time and also some friends of mine,sometimes they sounded good but in general not better than other fuses,sometimes different.The point is that fuses are like many things,they can work for some in certain equipment ,but are not universal,the same as speaker cables or interconnects.or whatever.

I think you misunderstanding me.Everyone hears differently and if these fuses work for somebody it is fine,the problem I have got is with false claims,nothing more .I guess somebody with your experience and background will feel the same,less false claims,more honesty and integrity and respect.

The storie about high efficiency speakers and single ended speaker,I uses them and love them.If your speaker are efficient with a even and not too low impedance they can work and sound great.I see you are the importer for Aries Cerat,wonderful equipment, I was looking into buying the Exsequor amps,maybe next year.I got plenty of 813 RCA tubes,I bought 35 years ago.I am awaiting a nice life insurance ( my insurance,is now eventually paying after my diagnosis with Parkinson MSA)and I want to slit it up between my family and the duty of helping ,people in need .

I never said fuses don’t work,I use and have used aftermarket fuses from a US and German company,sometimes they work and sometimes they make things go in the wrong direction,sound gets too warm or hard.

Just want to state it again.I am not saying fuses can’t have a positive influence,my problem is ,they claim it is quantum science and for me its the price.If someone like these fuses and is prepared to pay the price,it is fine,everyone should do with his money whatever he wants.

I just don’t like superlative claims without proof.You will know very well,without proof, science does not exist and the other scientists will laugh at you.

Nothing more

Chees all

 

[Music and Wine]

Hi All

I don’t have a problem with people with different opinions,I love them and we should promote them,differences make us better and stronger.

If we want we can criticize every word from everybody ,but what is the purpose of it.Rather build bridges and don’t promote devision.If in every post there is only 0.01% truths and important information it is still positive.If I add this up over all the years it is a lot of good info.

Mathematically,the best ,any person can achieve is 50%,this is absolutely the best and in most cases we humans don’t even come close.So,I make many many ,mistakes daily and have to admit that.

Often people fight but actually they just misunderstand each other,sometimes we express it not accurately enough,sometimes it is a language problem.Even somebody like me,a native German ,but somebody that been educated the whole life in the English language,still have after 60 years ,sometimes problems explaining complex things even explaining something in British English is different to North America English.

I speak 7 languages,all well but none perfect and now I live in Germany and hardly speak English in normal life,except when I go into my company,where we speak mostly English.My English is getting worse,every day.If you don’t practice something daily,you lose it.

Audio is a great hobby and we should support each.I have changed a lot in the past few years.It has become unimportant who’s right,but what is right and if somebody got a better argument,this is great

My first post yesterday,I just wanted to explain why I been absent for 4 years.Looking back ,I should have said nothing and just kept quiet,this is the reason why I never posted the results for the fuses,listening to them in different systems and lab results.I didn’t want to spread more division .

If in any form or way I offended you ,please forgive me,this was never my intention.

Cheers

 

[italia]

Audiophile Guru Syndrome exists in every area of life I have experienced - cars, motorcycles, music, audio, video, literature, religion, business, raising children, politics, etc. There is an inherent desire to be a subject expert in a field which drives some to divine themselves THE EXPERT to the detriment of others' opinions. It seems being THE expert provides a cathartic injection of life's adrenaline that drives them in their world. Unhealthy obsession level, potentially.

At one point in my working career I was considered a subject matter expert of a particular facet of the business. It was kind of cool that people respected my opinion and knowledge of the area, but I never felt I had to use it to denigrate others or their opinions.

Some people are so driven by this guru syndrome that they forego all other concerns beyond their chosen interest, and dedicate ALL of their time, energy, thoughts, and focus on that single interest. I know a guy who is an expert on a particularly significant rock band, even owning a semi-private museum of memorabilia of the band. He shows no interest in other music or bands. This has gone on for many decades. I once asked him if he wonders what he has missed in recorded music over the last few decades and he looks at me like I'm some sort of idiot.

 

[morricab]

Hi Morricab

Thanks for your opinion.

Great to have you here,somebody with insight into complex things

I listen to the fuses for a long time and also some friends of mine,sometimes they sounded good but in general not better than other fuses,sometimes different.The point is that fuses are like many things,they can work for some in certain equipment ,but are not universal,the same as speaker cables or interconnects.or whatever.

I think you misunderstanding me.Everyone hears differently and if these fuses work for somebody it is fine,the problem I have got is with false claims,nothing more .I guess somebody with your experience and background will feel the same,less false claims,more honesty and integrity and respect.

The storie about high efficiency speakers and single ended speaker,I uses them and love them.If your speaker are efficient with a even and not too low impedance they can work and sound great.I see you are the importer for Aries Cerat,wonderful equipment, I was looking into buying the Exsequor amps,maybe next year.I got plenty of 813 RCA tubes,I bought 35 years ago.I am awaiting a nice life insurance ( my insurance,is now eventually paying after my diagnosis with Parkinson MSA)and I want to slit it up between my family and the duty of helping ,people in need .

I never said fuses don’t work,I use and have used aftermarket fuses from a US and German company,sometimes they work and sometimes they make things go in the wrong direction,sound gets too warm or hard.

Just want to state it again.I am not saying fuses can’t have a positive influence,my problem is ,they claim it is quantum science and for me its the price.If someone like these fuses and is prepared to pay the price,it is fine,everyone should do with his money whatever he wants.

I just don’t like superlative claims without proof.You will know very well,without proof, science does not exist and the other scientists will laugh at you.

Nothing more

Chees all

Well, Exsequor is an amazing machine...an endgame amp of that topology if ever there was one.

I agree with you that invoking quantum and such is probably bogus...I think people do it because they hear differences and don't know how to explain them. Rather than just saying it works but we don't really know how yet and getting the sound we want is a bit hit and miss they try to invoke some technobabble. Probably they reason that saying, "I don't know" is tantamount to saying it doesn't really work to many non-technical people.

 

[morricab]

Hi All

I don’t have a problem with people with different opinions,I love them and we should promote them,differences make us better and stronger.

If we want we can criticize every word from everybody ,but what is the purpose of it.Rather build bridges and don’t promote devision.If in every post there is only 0.01% truths and important information it is still positive.If I add this up over all the years it is a lot of good info.

Mathematically,the best ,any person can achieve is 50%,this is absolutely the best and in most cases we humans don’t even come close.So,I make many many ,mistakes daily and have to admit that.

Often people fight but actually they just misunderstand each other,sometimes we express it not accurately enough,sometimes it is a language problem.Even somebody like me,a native German ,but somebody that been educated the whole life in the English language,still have after 60 years ,sometimes problems explaining complex things even explaining something in British English is different to North America English.

I speak 7 languages,all well but none perfect and now I live in Germany and hardly speak English in normal life,except when I go into my company,where we speak mostly English.My English is getting worse,every day.If you don’t practice something daily,you lose it.

Audio is a great hobby and we should support each.I have changed a lot in the past few years.It has become unimportant who’s right,but what is right and if somebody got a better argument,this is great

My first post yesterday,I just wanted to explain why I been absent for 4 years.Looking back ,I should have said nothing and just kept quiet,this is the reason why I never posted the results for the fuses,listening to them in different systems and lab results.I didn’t want to spread more division .

If in any form or way I offended you ,please forgive me,this was never my intention.

Cheers

You shouldn't take it all so personally...I know I don't...challenging debate is not a bad thing. IMO, you should keep posting and just enjoy the challenging debate...even if it is frustrating at times... people will still just keep on buying what they like...a few will be influenced but many are already set upon their course (very few of the members are young).

 

[Music and Wine]

Thank you Morricab

You are right ,I should take everything not so seriously,it is normally my words to others,but today you reminded me,very good .I would love to get your experience with Aries Cerat products in the future.At the moment I live in north western Germany,but I still got a house close to Zurich,where we, my wife and myself want to retire,I can even speak Swiss German,not so easy for a normal German and speak French fluently most days.

Great to be back

Cheers

 

[morricab]

Thank you Morricab

You are right ,I should take everything not so seriously,it is normally my words to others,but today you reminded me,very good .I would love to get your experience with Aries Cerat products in the future.At the moment I live in north western Germany,but I still got a house close to Zurich,where we, my wife and myself want to retire,I can even speak Swiss German,not so easy for a normal German and speak French fluently most days.

Great to be back

Cheers

You are welcome to visit anytime...You can hear the Aries Cerat Protos and Helene DAC on Odeon Semper loudspeakers.

 

[Music and Wine]

Wow,you got Odeon speakers.The factory is 20 km from me,but never visited them,I only listen to them a few times and these were the older models.I was always positively impressed.

I live here because I care for my parents,they don’t want to live anywhere else,sometimes they come and visit me in Namibia,on my game farm,but after 4 weeks,they want to go back to Germany ,where there friends are.Old people are stubborn,maybe I am also getting old.

I will really visit you in the future.I looked at you website,but I don’t know where you are in Switzerland

Cheers

 

[morricab]

Wow,you got Odeon speakers.The factory is 20 km from me,but never visited them,I only listen to them a few times and these were the older models.I was always positively impressed.

I live here because I care for my parents,they don’t want to live anywhere else,sometimes they come and visit me in Namibia,on my game farm,but after 4 weeks,they want to go back to Germany ,where there friends are.Old people are stubborn,maybe I am also getting old.

I will really visit you in the future.I looked at you website,but I don’t know where you are in Switzerland

Cheers

I can send you a private message with details.

 

[wil]

Another EE here, though I didn't pursue a career of it. It was mid 90's, computers were booming, I jumped to IT sector, then management then management in general and now I'm lightyears away in terms of profession, but the basic education is still there. Also what is there, is not only the university / college education on EE, but general problem detection and solving mindset that comes from early childhood that directs the person to the engineering field.
What You write about is valid not only for WBF, not only for internet forums in general, but our modern life in general. One side is pseudoscience, one side is people's egos, one side is it is a very subjective hobby and I guess there are few more sides to the story that I forgot to mention and all my following statements will be falsified through one of them :]] But one side I won't forget to mention is declining quality of education, both family (cultural) and academic education. People don't know the basics of problem assessment, step by step solution searching, and adequate application of solution. People also lack the basic notion of discussing / communicating. Communication, but more importantly discussion shall be a two-way interaction but nowadays people tend to listen to (or read their words online) just to pick up a few key words / points, and don't listen / read actively, they are just thinking of their next talk. Sometimes waiting impatiently their turn, most times not waiting, just cutting in and start talking. This is a problem I have while communicating, I listen actively, when other person's talk ends, I digest their ideas, form my ideas and start talking. Also, there is no patience anymore, anything and everything shall be short / quick, or dead. Most times, with most people, the duration I am digesting other statements and forming my ideas are wasted time, if it's two people communication the subject fades away, the other party jumps away to another subject, or if it more than two people, someone (not actively listening to the former speaker) jumps in and before I form my ideas and my sentences, the subject is a new one, what I was about to say are now old story. Just as I know (not scientifically though, I'm also good at making up scientific sounding data) more than 90 % of people reading this post of mine, will 'read' half of it, and skip through the other half, because it's too long, and talking about things they don't like to hear / read.
Also another problem is whataboutism (although not perfectly fitting in the recent discussion as it is, closest explanation is whataboutism). At times there are more than one sides of the subject being discussed (most of the time), one person states some argument, other party answers with another relevant looking but irrelevant side that supports their claim. And this vicious circle goes on and on.
The problem is where to draw the line. Since not being an industry professional, just a consumer, I have the luxury of throwing my two cents in, turning and waking away, which You don't have. What people miss is that the hardcore engineers, have a sense of duty against the society, as doctors have. Like when a doctor can't stand when people talk ... against vaccines, an engineer (of any discipline) feels the urge to correct the scientific misunderstanding that exists in front of them, that's an itch to them.
Yes, not every person is not supposed to be equipped with scientific thinking and understanding. Even there are people switching to education and career routes that they won't need to deal with math anymore. Yes it is normal that people have their opinions, especially on the very subjective areas (as HiFi). Yes hearing (or more accurately perception by brain of what is heard) is ultra subjective and having read many books of psycho-acoustics, hearing and brain, I know how deceiving it can be, how much perception is connected to anticipation. But like You, I am confused when people regret basic scientific fact by subjective perception.
The thing is, (and especially for WBF level of HiFi system values) even if people may have gotten into this hobby long ago and stayed humble for a long time, going into the higher-end area comes with a good amount of financial wealth and that comes with a good amount of career success. (Almost) Nobody would buy a 300K High-End HiFi system before having bought their own house, placed a good retirement plan aside and bought their significant other (at least) a car of their own :]] So the people You are discussing with (especially on WBF) are successful people. For most, it has been a long time any person has told them they are wrong, or throughout their life, they have proven wrong all the people telling them they are wrong. Most are the smartest person in every room they enter and that ego pumps and piles up through their lives.
Even without noticing it, You and I might be doing something similar to our doctor, car technician, gardener, plumber.. I use car analogy very much for HiFi, and it suits very good to many cases. Owning a HiFi system is like owning a car. More money, better one. After some point, the diminishing returns skyrockets. At some point one has to choose and switch to one no matter how much money spent, because both can not exist under one hood, or have to have one of both. As in the example of having an SUV and a sports car. But when You say "an SUV is heavier than a sports car in weight" and other person answers "while driving I feel my sports car heavier" that is where the problem starts. Even sometimes some people are "I feel like my SUV goes faster than Your sports car, and You can't make me believe otherwise because that's how I feel".
Sometimes I'm amazed how all this hearing, music, recording and reproducing sound, HiFi thing goes. We hear "one single" waveform and from inside that waveform We assort different ingredients. It is like eating a dish and assorting the spices in it. Seems some kind of magical, but also so ordinary that We all do it in many forms in our daily lives. Not everyone has to be a gourmet, yes every person can have a taste that they like or not. If an audiophile with a good ear is the equivalent of gourmet, the technical person in production is the chef in the kitchen. Stating I have a wonderful taste palate so I know which ingredients will go better in this dish (i.e. cooking) better than the chef is not the correct statement. Or to stick to the car example, We all drive our cars (We believe better than anyone on the road, especially that old lady), We can change the oil, change the tires (if We want to) but when there is a clucking sound coming from the engine, most of us go to the car technician. I believe the thing is to know when the car tech says "You shall switch to these tires, they will run with less noise", the right answer (after actively listening to them) would be "if it's not safety related, I prefer these" but not "no these tires are the best ever, I know better than You, You know nothing about cars". And be wise enough when the tech says "You shouldn't use these tires because they are safety threatening"
On another note, that SET + Horns vs. rest of the world kind of attitude and any and all kinds of threads, even the most remotely related ones turning into one on the subject is the biggest down side of WBF. Many people just read through forums, try to sort out valuable information from the subject and thread hijacks, sometimes loose hope and quit reading or skip the one bit of useful and valuable information while jumping through pages of non contributing posts. But hey, this is a free of charge online forum, and that kind of forum content is as old as internet is.

I like what you’ve written, but the lack of paragraphs is a real headache! Consider the reader.

 

[Atmasphere]

With my SET amp and JBL speakers (35Hz--20kHz) I'm unconcerned about the relevancy of claims that SET amps don't have quality bass below 20Hz.

If you want the best out of that combination my advice is to consider the problem. The amp is being presented with information well below 20Hz. The speakers are moving when the amp tries do do something with warp, tube noise and actual bass notes.

The distortion that is caused is something the speakers will reproduce. If you limit the bass, the distortion will go down and you'll hear an instant improvement. Since the speakers don't do anything below 35Hz maybe a 30Hz 12dB filter would do the job nicely. But even a simple capacitor in series with the input to the amp would help.

Assuming the input impedance of the Lamm is 100KOhms, for the -3dB point at ~32Hz, the cap value is 0.05uF. One in series with each channel at the input of the amp will do the trick.

Now if you really wanted to push things (go for maximum transparency), you could have the cap at the output of the preamp replaced with this value.

I doubt however if their curriculum covers which design principles (like minimal components in the signal path) results in the most life-like music reproduction.

It didn't! But it also didn't have a whole lot applying to tubes in general. The thing any college course gives and shows is simply that one going thru it knows how to learn.

I'm a big fan of simplicity and most of our designs reflect that. But it is possible to make something too simple. At the end of the day, whatever it is, if it pertains to audio it should be musical; IOW it 'sounds' such that you can spend all day listening to it and not get fatigued.

never said fuses don’t work,I use and have used aftermarket fuses from a US and German company,sometimes they work and sometimes they make things go in the wrong direction,sound gets too warm or hard.

Some equipment is sensitive to the AC line Voltage, and small things like the Voltage drop across the fuseholder (easily measured) affects that equipment a bit. Of course, fuses being directional is nonsense, but that isn't the same thing as turning the fuse around and thus achieving a lower Voltage drop across the fuseholder.

 

[Kingrex]

I ChatGPT Pro upped Quantum Physics and can you alter a fuse with it. In short, it told me no. It's deceptive advertising. I encourage people to use AI to understand what Quantum means. Then you will see through the balogna.

That does not mean different fuses sound different. It just means there is not Quantum in a fuse.

 

[Kingrex]

If you want the best out of that combination my advice is to consider the problem. The amp is being presented with information well below 20Hz. The speakers are moving when the amp tries do do something with warp, tube noise and actual bass notes.

The distortion that is caused is something the speakers will reproduce. If you limit the bass, the distortion will go down and you'll hear an instant improvement. Since the speakers don't do anything below 35Hz maybe a 30Hz 12dB filter would do the job nicely. But even a simple capacitor in series with the input to the amp would help.

Assuming the input impedance of the Lamm is 100KOhms, for the -3dB point at ~32Hz, the cap value is 0.05uF. One in series with each channel at the input of the amp will do the trick.

Now if you really wanted to push things (go for maximum transparency), you could have the cap at the output of the preamp replaced with this value.

It didn't! But it also didn't have a whole lot applying to tubes in general. The thing any college course gives and shows is simply that one going thru it knows how to learn.

I'm a big fan of simplicity and most of our designs reflect that. But it is possible to make something too simple. At the end of the day, whatever it is, if it pertains to audio it should be musical; IOW it 'sounds' such that you can spend all day listening to it and not get fatigued.

Some equipment is sensitive to the AC line Voltage, and small things like the Voltage drop across the fuseholder (easily measured) affects that equipment a bit. Of course, fuses being directional is nonsense, but that isn't the same thing as turning the fuse around and thus achieving a lower Voltage drop across the fuseholder.

All this stuff should be in the correct thread where it is useful and can be found more easily, and referenced back too.

 

[JiminGa]

The only people alienated are those who don't (or don't want to) have the technical understanding to know that the ability of sets to adequately drive the bass units of most speakers is highly compromised.

Regardless of what you hear - this is an undeniable fact & if that alienates people - that is their problem....

I think the alienation comes from others not respecting his own particular set of objective vis a vis theirs. He is willing to live with compromised bass response in exchange for what he calls greater realism. Would I make that choice? No but it’s not about me or you. It’s really got nothing to do with technical understanding. It has everything to do with how a given individual processes a musical experience to gain the most possible joy from it. Are we going to tell him that it is only his ignorance that allows him to enjoy SETs and that he shouldn’t be so darn happy with them? If he were to tell me that I was wrong using a high current class A amp I would tell him the same in reverse. None of us is after exactly the same thing. Any time anyone here is actually happy with what they have it’s time to celebrate.

 

[Atmasphere]

He is willing to live with compromised bass response in exchange for what he calls greater realism.

If we're talking about an SET, the simple fact is there will be less realism if deep bass is allowed into the amp.

I've not been advocating people dump their SETs. I have been advocating being pragmatic about what the amps can and cannot do. If you apply that pragmatism, you prevent the bass from messing with the amp, so it can do its best.

Its such an easy and inexpensive thing to do. I do not get why someone wouldn't at least try it, especially when you consider how much some SETs actually cost. An analogy might be buying a nice vintage sports car and then putting terrible tires on it. You'd not be able to appreciate the charm of the vehicle...

 

[Music and Wine]

Hi Ralph
I agree with you,I solved the problem by getting a speaker that is semi active and 97db and a impedance of between around,4.5-8 ohms and no big current demand.Even the 300b amp sounds powerful and my own 212 amp just magnificent.I don’t listen to music at 100db,my wife would divorce me.Only when my children come around and they have a party,them the system plays loud and then I put in a solid state amp,a Accuphase class a amp and that sounds also quite good as well and my wife and myself flee and go and stay in a hotel for the night

Thank you for your opinion and technical knowledge, I personally value you input and can relate to it.

Cheers