Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?

[dcathro]

I can only say that the forum is just a shadow of what it used to be.

I used to tune in several times a day and there was so much to follow. Now I have a casual glance every day or two.

Part is due to the commercialisation, part due to interesting members leaving, and part due to repetitive arguments.

 

[italia]

Gone are the days of advertising-free Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. Manufacturer encouraged reviews of EVERY product sold and bought, combined with social media influencers are the marketing flavor of the day. 29 manufacturer sub-forums on this site pay the bills for hosting, forum software, etc.

Forums are commercial enterprises and "big business". Vertical Scope ('VS'), the world's largest owner of 'forums', has a portfolio of over 1000 forums across a multitude of hobby / interest groups. 'VS', based in Canada, part of Torstar which runs the Toronto Star news organization plus 70+ other newspapers and media entities. Torstar is owned by a private equity firm, NordStar Capital.

Vertical Scope acquires dozens of forums every year. One day, this forum will be part of Vertical Scope or one of its competitors. Grow a business. Sell a business. It's capitalism, and this forum is conducting business in a predictable manner. Be well all.

The above is my opinion.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I suppose if Elliot feels very strongly about what’s happening to WBF and maybe in a larger sense to the industry in general, he can bring it up in the next Ron Resnick round table podcast hi-fi five chat and share his complaints to that audience. It would be interesting to see the reaction because Ron moderates that discussion and is an owner here.

What a clever way to stir the pot, Peter. No, that will not be happening.

The HiFi Five is a structured show in which the regulars ask questions of the weekly guest, and, toward the end of the show, answer viewer questions. We are hosting our first guest this Wednesday. It is not a general venue for airing "complaints."

Join us every Wednesday at 9:00 PM Eastern Time at https://youtube.com/@thehififive?si=lq5eyL2JQwG1E8p1

 

[PeterA]

What a clever way to stir the pot, Peter. No, that will not be happening.

The HiFi Five is a structured show in which the regulars ask questions of the weekly guest, and, toward the end of the show, answer viewer questions. We are hosting our first guest this Wednesday. It is not a general venue for airing "complaints."

Join us every Wednesday at 9:00 PM Eastern Time at https://youtube.com/@thehififive?si=lq5eyL2JQwG1E8p1

I understand that from your perspective as moderator. But if you prohibit certain topics when discussing the state of the industry, how much progress and insight will you deliver from these industry discussions?

I suppose Elliot can lodge his complaints here on your forum, but as a participant on the podcast, he may not be as free to express an opinion. You’re in charge so that is fine. I suppose it depends on what the purpose is.

 

[allvinyl]

I can only say that the forum is just a shadow of what it used to be.

I used to tune in several times a day and there was so much to follow. Now I have a casual glance every day or two.

Part is due to the commercialisation, part due to interesting members leaving, and part due to repetitive arguments.

ALL of the above. Why repeat exactly what I have been thinking for some time...

 

[Alrainbow]

My own name for here says what it is in part of this topic
The Wallet lol
it's very hard to find owners who are willing to share about Uber systems .
This leaves those interested in a forum like here .
Who pushes what brands is to me understanding,after all they want to sell there products .
Now having said this I did have a audio buddy stop in to see and hear Elliot at his place in Florida last week . I was supposed to attend as well.
My non audio related business is busy I'm above my workload .
So once again missed a great opportunity yet again .
I can say my buds who were lucky enough to be there were flawed by a few visual and hearing comments
For one to see wadax in person is needed not just sound but it's build quality
Massive and beautiful, looks ultra high tech as well as a vintage look.
Sound was amazing to them .
Gobel teamed up with Riviera played into wadax is other worldly
One bud there built speakers back in the day had his own brand .
And he is a serious listener to a point of critical thoughts .

 

[sbo6]

I know I can be seen as stirring the pot, so be it, sometimes the truth hurts. That said:

I see favoritism in terms of # of posts to gear the WBF owners own, it's their own personal blogs. Even the designers jump in.
I see disparaging conversation - stay on topic = ridiculous IMO.
I see favoritism of company groups. I asked to have a company groups added some years back to no avail.

Is it better than no forum? Sure. Is it as fair and enjoyable as some years back, nope.

 

[Legolas]

Gone are the days of advertising-free Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. Manufacturer encouraged reviews of EVERY product sold and bought, combined with social media influencers are the marketing flavor of the day. 29 manufacturer sub-forums on this site pay the bills for hosting, forum software, etc.

Forums are commercial enterprises and "big business". Vertical Scope ('VS'), the world's largest owner of 'forums', has a portfolio of over 1000 forums across a multitude of hobby / interest groups. 'VS', based in Canada, part of Torstar which runs the Toronto Star news organization plus 70+ other newspapers and media entities. Torstar is owned by a private equity firm, NordStar Capital.

Vertical Scope acquires dozens of forums every year. One day, this forum will be part of Vertical Scope or one of its competitors. Grow a business. Sell a business. It's capitalism, and this forum is conducting business in a predictable manner. Be well all.

The above is my opinion.

There is another aspect you haven't mentioned. Running a forum like this, that is worth moderated to avoid politics, aggressive actions to members by members, and generally keep the content clean and grown up - takes a huge amount of time and effort. The 2 owners are both avid audiophiles, so not dealers or investors, aside Ron with Clarysis, which I think Ron has struck a fair balance between owner and dealer.

Trust me, the money in the commercial side of WBF is not big. Minus hosting charges, coding cost, bug fixing the server, moderation, there is not much left for anything else.

Agon and others are not better than WBF, most forums are mud slinging matches IMO, many with angry keyboard warriors who argue any amp or speaker costing over 3K is ridiculous.

So sum up, I disagree WBF has gone wrong, and me and Steve, Ron and the mods team are very proud of the work and community we have going on here.

On the big threads and supposed pushing select brands, I disagree. Any sponsor on this forum has all the tools to hand, to make very active threads by getting owners and the brand more involved. There is nothing to be gained by moaning some threads are getting 'promoted' by the owners. It is not true. Steve and Ron post as audiophiles, as sharing their enjoyment of their system build and progress. I value their posts greatly.

Elliot, if you really wanted a big blow up over this, maybe you need to just leave? Or maybe do as I suggest and get your Goebel threads alight. I will enjoy reading them and watch them progress, and be pleased about it.

 

[thedudeabides]

ALL of the above. Why repeat exactly what I have been thinking for some time...

How would dcathro know what you are thinking?????

Is this WBF's version of Johhny Carson's Carnac?

 

[thedudeabides]

I see favoritism in terms of # of posts to gear the WBF owners own, it's their own personal blogs.

Human nature and to be expected. The big boys version of the kid who has everything (in his mind) and says to his friends "look what I have". It's called positive reinforcement.

Even the designers jump in.

They are often asked to by the poster who has technical questions about their products. Or do they ignore the inquiry and respond "don't f--ing bother me". Good business practice.

The big question. Do those who gush about a product profit, in anyway whatsoever, for posting or are they simply enthusiastic, happy to own the product and want to share their positive personal experiences? See above.

 

[thedudeabides]

Is it better than no forum? Sure. Is it as fair and enjoyable as some years back, nonope.

I get what you are saying but in general, If anyone has major issues with forum content and how the forum is run, one can always chose to ignore and don't participate. See 48.

 

[microstrip]

I get what you are saying but in general, If anyone has major issues with forum content and how the forum is run, one can always chose to ignore and don't participate. See 48.

I disagree with such perspective, unfriendly presented at post 48. WBF became a known forum with the participation of members that contributed with hundreds of thousands of posts that are now copyright of WBF. If someone feels uncomfortable with the way some things go he should express his opinion and do its best to try to help improving the forum. Members are not sheep and forum owners are not our shepherd!

 

[JiminGa]

I disagree with such perspective, unfriendly presented at post 48. WBF became a known forum with the participation of members that contributed with hundreds of thousands of posts that are now copyright of WBF. If someone feels uncomfortable with the way some things go he should express his opinion and do its best to try to help improving the forum. Members are not sheep and forum owners are not our shepherd!

Micro I totally agree. In an ideal world everyone would always be trying to make things better. Especially in those parts of our life that we ascribe meaning to. Not trying and accepting what we’re stuck with does no one any good. No learning. No growth. Anybody here teaching their children to silently accept what they know could be better if they spoke up and applied themselves

 

[sbo6]

Human nature and to be expected. The big boys version of the kid who has everything (in his mind) and says to his friends "look what I have". It's called positive reinforcement.

They are often asked to by the poster who has technical questions about their products. Or do they ignore the inquiry and respond "don't f--ing bother me". Good business practice.

The big question. Do those who gush about a product profit, in anyway whatsoever, for posting or are they simply enthusiastic, happy to own the product and want to share their positive personal experiences? See above.

Favoritism is human nature? For some maybe, but not universally. Positive reinforcement? For whom?

WRT product owners and responses, of course they'll respond, it about mo' $$ ;-) If by "Good business practice" you mean MO' $ then, sure.

 

[sbo6]

I get what you are saying but in general, If anyone has major issues with forum content and how the forum is run, one can always chose to ignore and don't participate. See 48.

Just like you can ignore this thread and not comment, but here we are. ;-)

 

[Elliot G.]

There is another aspect you haven't mentioned. Running a forum like this, that is worth moderated to avoid politics, aggressive actions to members by members, and generally keep the content clean and grown up - takes a huge amount of time and effort. The 2 owners are both avid audiophiles, so not dealers or investors, aside Ron with Clarysis, which I think Ron has struck a fair balance between owner and dealer.

Trust me, the money in the commercial side of WBF is not big. Minus hosting charges, coding cost, bug fixing the server, moderation, there is not much left for anything else.

Agon and others are not better than WBF, most forums are mud slinging matches IMO, many with angry keyboard warriors who argue any amp or speaker costing over 3K is ridiculous.

So sum up, I disagree WBF has gone wrong, and me and Steve, Ron and the mods team are very proud of the work and community we have going on here.

On the big threads and supposed pushing select brands, I disagree. Any sponsor on this forum has all the tools to hand, to make very active threads by getting owners and the brand more involved. There is nothing to be gained by moaning some threads are getting 'promoted' by the owners. It is not true. Steve and Ron post as audiophiles, as sharing their enjoyment of their system build and progress. I value their posts greatly.

Elliot, if you really wanted a big blow up over this, maybe you need to just leave? Or maybe do as I suggest and get your Goebel threads alight. I will enjoy reading them and watch them progress, and be pleased about it.

First of all who exactly are you? What is your position in realtion to WBF?
If you and some others had bothered to actually read what i said and the questions I asked it has nothing to do with any product. What I asked about is how full disclosure on WBF seems to be enforced selectively, and selectively in only one direction. we as dealers, distributors and manufacturers have to pay to have a forum and have to follow a full disclosure position of who we are and what we do.
I said many times It the right of everyone to say what they want about product, have opinions, express them and discuss them. This is NOT in question. The choice to change the subject to deflect from my point IMO is very telling. I have a forum, I pay for it as asked. I ave the right to express my self and my opinions. I did not question the quality of Zelaton, Stellavox, Goldmund, Taiko, Lampizator, Crital Mass Footers, ad whatever else has been highlighted here, that gentlemen is not the point.
As far as I am aware Ron has fully disclosed his position with his store and the product/products he represents and that is the way it is supposed to work


Elliot, if you really wanted a big blow up over this, maybe you need to just leave? Or maybe do as I suggest and get your Goebel threads alight. I will enjoy reading them and watch them progress, and be pleased about it.

Statements like this aimed at dismissing my opinion, my right to express myself, my right to free speech are truly offensive.
I dont know if you speak for this forum but if you do please send me a full refund and you can take the forum and shove it. I don't back down and I won't shut up. This is not about me but it has everything to do with YOU .
I truly have no interest in participating in a Forum with people like you.

 

[tima]

No, that will not be happening.

But if you prohibit certain topics when discussing the state of the industry, how much progress and insight will you deliver from these industry discussions?

Its time to "handle the truth" about the audio Industry.

Is this the best we can do? Did the screenwriters guild go on strike?

 

[Legolas]

As a paying member, an advertiser, a contributor, a dealer and a distributor I want to know when the forum became the marketing and cheerleading arm of certain selected companies? I have no issues with people talking about their products, their tech etc. but it seems more and more evident that there is more happening here. It seems to me and others I have talked with that the Forum is favoring certain companies and products over others. This is fine personally IMO , we all the right to like what we like, however when the Forum is used to market one product over others, I believe this is a bridge to far.

Well firstly this is an accusation. So which companies exactly? Which threads?
May I point out to you, the most successful threads (biggest) are almost entirely filled with owner posts. My suggestion to you Elliot is get on that subject, call your Goebel clients, get them to post and add photos, then in 6 months you to will have big threads. I am saying less of the thread bashing.
Lastly, you don't like my tone, how? I suggested in a positive way what you could do.

 

[Kingrex]

I don't see any issues. I don't see manufacturer or adds shaping the focus of the forum. That would be more the Audioshark forum.
All forums have changed to a degree over time. All have their 15 to 20 prolific posters. Those people drive the thread count response.

I don't think Steve or Ron or anyone else for that matter, starting a thread has any bearing on it getting traction and growing. That is 100% the members engaging and actively posting. I bet the Stellavox thread dies out quickly. Maybe Steve will wake it up here and there with his home demo. But I doubt that demo will have near the excitement as the Lampizator demo.

I perceive manufacturer driven threads survive as the manufacturer management themselves are engaged and sharing product development. It also appears that products that allow a degree of customer, tone shaping, like tube rolling, are active. And products that are in a category of somewhat affordable. A DAC that is say $40k and has a degree of customer interaction with it, is going to have more forum member engagement than a $300,000 DAC that cost an additional $44,000 for a interconnect cord to shape the sound.

I don't know who is talking in post 56, but its to emotionally charged and unpleasant to read. I would not call that store owner to purchase gear.

 

[thedudeabides]

Just like you can ignore this thread and not comment, but here we are. ;-)

? Whatever you say. This whole discussion is too incoherent for me. Sorry I made any comments. You all enjoy. Bye.