What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[abeidrov]

How close the sound of a high sensitive speaker like Grandinote Mach 9 or Mach 8 would be to a horn like Avantgarde Duo SD? Considering that Grandinote is 3 times cheaper and also is probably much easier to setup in a typical living space, Grandinote looks like a very tempting alternative.

 

[tima]

With regard to subjective perception, I disagree. ...

I'm reporting that at the very highest levels of reproduction there are subtleties and nuances of loudspeakers which even I can discern and which are more or less convincing with different kinds of music.

On which genres are Clarysis less convincing?

 

[Al M.]

For my part I concur , the Admire Audio system is for the most part an enjoyable presentation of the Mahler Symphony No2 , however is flirting with saturation on a couple of occasions … Listening to both system tracks with eyes closed the second system places me somewhat closer to a corporeal experience at The Barbican or Royal Festival Hall .

I agree, if the video sound is to be believed the amp is clearly running out of steam on climaxes. But apparently Bonzo likes underpowered systems with no balls:

The dynamic headroom of Admire audio was great on both Mahler and many other classical tracks including new world, and their woofer enclosure is providing the bass. I don’t like the video you posted at all.

 

[bonzo75]

This is playing the same vinyl with class D 500 hz downwards on 2 15 inch woofers per speaker

 

[Atmasphere]

Nice analysis on an n of 1, given that one of the Altecs is on a 4w and absolutely brilliant on black sabbath. Though 10w of the sans design amp was required for good symphony. It has more to do with the excursion difference between the Altec and the Admire audio, not the requirement

I'm having trouble sorting out what this means. 'n of 1' isn't landing. Not sure what you mean by 'excursion difference' either, or why 'not the requirement' ends the sentence. Could you clarify?

Do you know where in the mid band this distortion in the original TAD occurred ( 2 to 3 k?).

I seem to recall being told it was near the low frequency cutoff, but that does not square with the more relaxed presentation, so no.

With regard to subjective perception, I disagree.

In doing so, you would simply be wrong; I've no problem with the disagreement as I've seen this play out many times.

Again, this is one of the most common myths in audio and has been around for decades. Once one realizes it really is a myth, that knowledge allows one to put together a system that is more musical; more successful. A sister myth is that of equipment synergy, in that a dull sounding product is paired with a bright sounding product can be combined to achieve something in the middle. It doesn't really work. You can build a much more musical system if each component is there based on its strengths rather than its weaknesses.

I'm not arguing about electronics.

Loudspeakers are electronic and mechanical. Are you instead talking about something that isn't amps or speakers (like the overall combination of equipment in the particular room)? If so I missed that.

I'm reporting that at the very highest levels of reproduction there are subtleties and nuances of loudspeakers which even I can discern and which are more or less convincing with different kinds of music.

Right. We're on the same page there. What I'm trying to address is that those subtleties and nuances of loudspeakers might be more convincing on certain tracks but not certain genres. That is why I mentioned sample size and why I could find examples that didn't support your claim. For example classical music spans a very wide range of material, such as songs sung with a accompaniment such as a piano.

What isn't mentioned here is how the 'girl with the guitar' was actually recorded. Did the engineer put a mic on the guitar and one on her voice (a common failing if you want realism)? We recorded a well-known local musician (Paul Metzger) a few years back and he was astonished when we placed a single pair of mics about 10 feet from him rather than having one right on top of his guitar. But when he heard the playback he commented it was the most realistic he had ever heard.

The recording is likely paramount in all this discussion. Not knowing the provenance of their creation can lead to incorrect conclusions and is part of why I mentioned sample size.

I know you didn't intend to, but you just proved my point.

My intention was to support your statement with the explanation of why it works that way.

But there is no horn speaker like this to my knowledge, so it's a specious reply.

So far, yes, till someone sorts out to do that although it seems to me @Duke LeJeune (Audiokinesis) built a speaker called the Dreammaker that had a rear firing horn. It was fairly efficient and an easy impedance; 16 Ohm IIRC. Again this was simply to support your point about planars.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...he's suggesting your conclusion is based on a single sample. n=1 or n of 1, colloquially.

 

[Ron Resnick]

...he's suggesting your conclusion is based on a single sample. n=1 or n of 1, colloquially.

No; I've heard hundreds of systems -- in private listening rooms, at audio shows and at dealer showrooms -- all over the world.

 

[Ron Resnick]

In doing so, you would simply be wrong; I've no problem with the disagreement as I've seen this play out many times.

Again, this is one of the most common myths in audio and has been around for decades. Once one realizes it really is a myth, that knowledge allows one to put together a system that is more musical; more successful.

I see we're not going to be able to make any progress on this particular point. But I thank you for the discussion.

What I'm trying to address is that those subtleties and nuances of loudspeakers might be more convincing on certain tracks but not certain genres. That is why I mentioned sample size and why I could find examples that didn't support your claim. For example classical music spans a very wide range of material, such as songs sung with a accompaniment such as a piano.

Well, sure. I'm just talking about vocals.

I'm not making any distinction between a woman singing an adult contemporary song with accompaniment such as a piano versus a woman singing a classical music song with accompaniment such as a piano. I am not arguing about whether or not these are different genres of music. I am saying that both of these are the kinds of vocals I am talking about.

What isn't mentioned here is how the 'girl with the guitar' was actually recorded. Did the engineer put a mic on the guitar and one on her voice (a common failing if you want realism)? We recorded a well-known local musician (Paul Metzger) a few years back and he was astonished when we placed a single pair of mics about 10 feet from him rather than having one right on top of his guitar. But when he heard the playback he commented it was the most realistic he had ever heard.

The recording is likely paramount in all this discussion. Not knowing the provenance of their creation can lead to incorrect conclusions and is part of why I mentioned sample size.

Of course the recording is crucially important. But I do not believe that recording technique can overcome the fundamental differences in sound propagation characteristics between a dipole planar and a conventional front-firing box speaker that creates the more convincing presentation of a live singer in front of me that I subjectively perceive and value.

My intention was to support your statement with the explanation of why it works that way.

Thank you.

So far, yes, till someone sorts out to do that although it seems to me @Duke LeJeune (Audiokinesis) built a speaker called the Dreammaker that had a rear firing horn. It was fairly efficient and an easy impedance; 16 Ohm IIRC. Again this was simply to support your point about planars.

I recall that in one recent design Duke had a standalone rear-firing tweeter that just gets pointed at the front wall.

 

[PeterA]

The recording is likely paramount in all this discussion. Not knowing the provenance of their creation can lead to incorrect conclusions and is part of why I mentioned sample size.

Ralph, this is an important point and critical to what we experience in our home listening room. Mic placement and the intent of those making the record recording determines in large part what we experience through our systems, assuming the system is sufficiently transparent, and the result is not corrupted by the room.

This is why I asked for clarification about the goal of always wanting the performer in the listening room in front of the listener. To me that implies a system and room selection and set up with the aim of changing the information on the recording so as to always result in the same kind of presentation. I suppose it is a legitimate goal for some listeners, but it seems at odds with what most try to achieve.

 

[Atmasphere]

No; I've heard hundreds of systems -- in private listening rooms, at audio shows and at dealer showrooms -- all over the world.

That comment was not directed at you; it was for Bonzo.

I see we're not going to be able to make any progress on this particular point.

Perhaps; if you ever get curious about this, ask an amplifier or speaker designer how they make the product to favor a musical genre. If you get an answer, I'd love to see it since far as I know, its impossible. So I'm just using logic supported by experience, although confirmation bias is a possibility. So I'd like to know- so far no-one I know of knows a way.

This is why I asked for clarification about the goal of always wanting the performer in the listening room in front of the listener.

The best model I've come up with (having spent years with a recording studio and also doing on-location recordings) for 2 channel stereo is it converts the room to a time/space machine that can graft your listening space onto a musical event. Sometimes the side walls of the room vanish to allow information from the sides and sometimes they don't. With most recordings its as if the front wall isn't there and the musical event is.

AFAIK it takes special phase processing, similar to what was used in Amused to Death, to cause images to project in front of the plane of the speakers if the room and system is set up properly.

 

[bonzo75]

The recording is likely paramount in all this discussion. Not knowing the provenance of their creation can lead to incorrect conclusions and is part of why I mentioned sample size.

Ron can never relate to this, frustrated telling him over the years. He thinks wanting to colour in a particular way is subjective taste. This is a newbie thing, before being exposed to good recordings and systems, where vocals that he likes will sound better without the forced in room colouration

 

[Ron Resnick]

Perhaps; if you ever get curious about this, ask an amplifier or speaker designer how they make the product to favor a musical genre. way.

This is a bit disingenuous, because I've never suggested that favoring a musical genre is something that a designer conscientiously designs into his/her loudspeaker.

 

[Al M.]

Ron can never relate to this, frustrated telling him over the years. He thinks wanting to colour in a particular way is subjective taste. This is a newbie thing, before being exposed to good recordings and systems, where vocals that he likes will sound better without the forced in room colouration

It's not a newbie thing, it's personal taste. Not everyone wants the same from a stereo and you are not an authority who can speak for what everyone should consider best. No one is.

 

[bonzo75]

It's not a newbie thing, it's personal taste. Not everyone wants the same from a stereo and you are not an authority who can speak for what everyone should consider best. No one is.

No. personal taste develops in a hobby. It is quite boring to discuss food with someone who claims to be a foodie and wants everything to be powdered milk. If someone is a hobbyist, I expect more exposure and nuanced understanding

 

[Al M.]

No. personal taste develops in a hobby. It is quite boring to discuss food with someone who claims to be a foodie and wants everything to be powdered milk. If someone is a hobbyist, I expect more exposure and nuanced understanding

As Ron has explained he has heard hundreds of systems, so it is not a lack of exposure. Strong tastes are just that, and you have no authority to dictate what a person's individual tastes should be. No one has.

 

[bonzo75]

As Ron has explained he has heard hundreds of systems, so it is not a lack of exposure. Strong tastes are just that, and you have no authority to dictate what a person's individual tastes should be. No one has.

It is, because of the recordings and the music and the way he listens. Which led to him selecting speakers that actually had the exact attribute he wanted to avoid. You could go to many restaurants and just eat their bread

 

[bonzo75]

As Ron has explained he has heard hundreds of systems, so it is not a lack of exposure. Strong tastes are just that, and you have no authority to dictate what a person's individual tastes should be. No one has.

Please tell me why in one month he changed it from “in room” to corrected, not in room, back to in room

 

[Atmasphere]

This is a bit disingenuous, because I've never suggested that favoring a musical genre is something that a designer conscientiously designs into his/her loudspeaker.

That was not my intention. Perhaps instead you could other designers (apparently not me...) how such products might favor a musical genre, despite that not being the designers intention. That too is an answer I'd love to hear. So far I've not seen a good explanation.

I think you might see the problem here. There's no accounting for taste so any manufacturer must accept that their equipment is going to be subjected to any recording ever made. I once saw a MacIntosh speaker at RMAF (if memory serves) that bottomed out when big bass notes were played (Peter Gabriel's Rabbit Proof Fence/the Long Journey Home soundtrack, cut 1) at what I would consider (especially given the small size of the room) a normal listening level. IMO it was clear that the designer didn't try out torture tracks on the speakers. I don't see that speaker in their lineup so evidently they sorted out that my recording I played for demo was not unique.

 

[Hornsolutions Swen]

I’d like to return to the original question at this point. The Vox Olympian is essentially a 4- or 5-way loudspeaker, with only two of those five ways being horn-loaded. By contrast, the Trio GT and its predecessors are 3-way designs, with bass reproduction handled in a more conventional manner.

From a purely sonic perspective, however, I personally find the Vox Olympian to play in an entirely different league. I have listened to it on several occasions at a friend’s place, including with the optional bass extension.

That said, when opening a thread with such a rather superficial and provocative question, it would actually be helpful to first clarify what should properly be considered a horn loudspeaker in the first place. Shouldn’t all ten octaves ideally be horn-loaded? Or is it sufficient if only four out of ten, or perhaps five out of ten, are?


Best regards,


S

 

[bonzo75]

That said, when opening a thread with such a rather superficial and provocative question, it would actually be helpful to first clarify what should properly be considered a horn loudspeaker in the first place. Shouldn’t all ten octaves ideally be horn-loaded? Or is it sufficient if only four out of ten, or perhaps five out of ten, are?


Best regards,


S

Yes, many start non-horn loading midbass down