What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

In practice Gobel Majestic, TAD R1 and WAMM can give you close to horn dynamics.
The only Wilson model with realistic dynamics and a lively sound is the first-generation The X-1 Grand SLAMM, which, without any hassle, delivers live-like dynamics and energy with just 30w from a SET tube amp, offering an experience close to a live concert. However, TAD R1 and newer Wilson models, such as the XVX and WAMM, have an impressive sound with artificial, controlled dynamics, similar to hearing a clean, engineered sound through the glass of a professional recording studio. In contrast, the X1 or Sigma MAAT, when paired with low-power amps, behave similarly to SET/horn systems, giving you the experience of sitting in the front row of a live concert.
What about Zellaton speakers? Which group would you place them in?
They belong to the same category as Vandersteen and Sigma Acoustics in terms of their approach to phase coherence and natural sound reproduction. The acoustic centers of their drivers are aligned, and they use a simple 6 dB crossover.
 
Just becasue a speaker designer time aligns the drivers and uses a first order crossover does not mean it will have a simple crossover or be easy to drive. I present the crossover for a Thiel 3.6 as an example. Just look at all of those parts for a simple 3-way speaker. Although a relatively flat impedance, it was below 3 ohms and a sensitivity of 86 dB/2.8V which would translate to about 81 dB/W.

View attachment 156980
Yes, the basic crossover of the Thiel is first-order, but to achieve precise time alignment and optimal frequency response, they use all-pass filters, which is why it seems so complex.
All-pass filters do not create a slope, they only compensate for phase delay. However, they could interact with other components in the crossover network and potentially contribute to impedance dips at specific frequencies (nominal impedace of 4 ohms but dip to 2.3 ohms at 3.6kHz)
Cs36fig1.jpgBut in the other side unlike Thiel Vandersteen typically does not use all-pass filters in its crossover designs.This is why in Vandersteen speakers, like the Treo model, the impedance remains more stable and does not exhibit impedance dips at specific frequencies (nominal impedance of 6 ohms and minimum of 5.5 ohms, at 26 and 75Hz).
666Treofig01-1.jpg
 
You didn't use 'high efficiency' here. I agree with all of this except the efficiency bit, which for most SETs (7W or less) really should be 99dB or higher (there is a reason horn speakers were so much more common into the 1950s). Any zero feedback SET really has only about 20-25% of their rated power as usable. Above that distortion makes them sound 'dynamic'. To avoid that, to get the most out of the SET, you need an actual high efficiency speaker.

I consider 90-96dB as moderate and mostly unsuited for SETs unless the SET is very high power (such as 30 Watts).

That speaker, while excellent in many ways, is 4 Ohms. So its only 87dB 1 Watt/1 meter. Unless in a very small room its not suited for SETs as both the efficiency and impedance are not ideal for a zero feedback SET. TAD made some excellent drivers though. In particular the 1602 woofer which was 8 Ohms, 97dB and had a free air resonance of 22Hz. In a proper cabinet it could be flat to below 20Hz.

Yes- recursive arguments like that are an appeal to authority.

Efficiency is given in % of conversion electrical energy to speaker output. Sensitivity is given in SPL, either as dB at 1m and 1 watt (as an 8 ohm load) or dB at 1 m and 2.83V.

The article above explains the relationship and the conversion equation between efficiency and sensitivity.

I have heard plenty of mid 90s dB speakers that work well with low powered amps, 92dB and easy load can work very well with a SET. I don’t buy your argument that amp distortion makes an amp sound more dynamic. Every time I have heard an amp reaching its limit it sounds more congested and compressed, not more dynamic.
 
The only Wilson model with realistic dynamics and a lively sound is the first-generation The X-1 Grand SLAMM, which, without any hassle, delivers live-like dynamics and energy with just 30w from a SET tube amp, offering an experience close to a live concert. However, TAD R1 and newer Wilson models, such as the XVX and WAMM, have an impressive sound with artificial, controlled dynamics, similar to hearing a clean, engineered sound through the glass of a professional recording studio. In contrast, the X1 or Sigma MAAT, when paired with low-power amps, behave similarly to SET/horn systems, giving you the experience of sitting in the front row of a live concert.

They belong to the same category as Vandersteen and Sigma Acoustics in terms of their approach to phase coherence and natural sound reproduction. The acoustic centers of their drivers are aligned, and they use a simple 6 dB crossover.

I think you never listened to TAD R1 or WAMM or Gobel Majestic and you just repeat theories in your mind. Dynamic is not equal to efficiency.

What is your home system? Please share a picture.

I listened to Sigma MAAT and it was far from a good speaker. Sigma midrange driver is very un-natural and reminds me plastic coloration.

If you are trying to advertise for Sigma MAAT I have nothing to say.

Living Voice horn is ok but Most modern horns are awful in this market.

High efficiency is good but it is not all the story. I believe Prejudice is not helpful, I think some cone speakers are better than most modern horn speakers.

I am not fan of good theories and I am fan of listening without prejudice
 
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I think you never listened to TAD R1 or WAMM or Gobel Majestic and you just repeat theories in your mind. Dynamic is not equal to efficiency.

What is your home system? Please share a picture.

I listened to Sigma MAAT and it was far from a good speaker. Sigma midrange driver is very un-natural and reminds me plastic coloration.

If you are trying to advertise for Sigma MAAT I have nothing to say.

Living Voice horn is ok but Most modern horns are awful in this market.

High efficiency is good but it is not all the story. I believe Prejudice is not helpful, I think some cone speakers are better than most modern horn speakers.

I am not fan of good theories and I am fan of listening without prejudice
There is a Sigma MAAT XAC that uses papyrus midranges that doesn’t sound plastic at all.
If you think big Living Voice is just ok, then you haven’t heard it setup correctly.
 
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I listened to Sigma MAAT and it was far from a good speaker. Sigma midrange driver is very un-natural and reminds me plastic coloration.

I have heard 4 set ups and only liked one, with all Kondo. One other did show potential. The difference is one of their models has a paper driver which I think I preferred, apart from the amplfication. Marcus (and Kuzma, I think) also heard that system before starting his thread, and when Kuzma bought it

I have heard Kondo sound good in only 3 systems, one with Sigma Maat Vector, one with Klangfilm, one with Diesis.



 
Marcus (and Kuzma, I think) also heard that system before starting his thread, and when Kuzma bought it
As morricab said, MAAX Vector XAC uses papirus midrange and is anything but plastic or unnatural sounding. Amir maybe heard different MAAT model. There’s also MAAT ORCHESTRA, MAAT MODERN and MAAT CLASSICA…


Link to the thread I opened a year ago: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sigma-acoustics-maat-vector-xac.39261/
 
As morricab said, MAAX Vector XAC uses papirus midrange and is anything but plastic or unnatural sounding. Amir maybe heard different MAAT model. There’s also MAAT ORCHESTRA, MAAT MODERN and MAAT CLASSICA…


Link to the thread I opened a year ago: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sigma-acoustics-maat-vector-xac.39261/

I have no interest to say MAAT or any other speaker in this market is not good. There is no need to attack audio companies in this awful condition. I just say we can not judge equipments with their specifications and we should listen and listen and listen.

Specification all are marketing hype.
 
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If I’m not mistaken Sigma MAAT uses rear drivers and that’s a problem. I never liked that ’90s trend in speaker design and never expected it to make a comeback—but apparently Sigma thinks otherwise. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

The rear drivers add reverberation and an artificial surround effect to the sound. Other than that, the Sigma MAAT is a very good speaker IMO.
 
The rear drivers add reverberation and an artificial surround effect to the sound
It could be quite the opposite!

The reason to do so has to do with the length of the waveform and the presence of standing waves in the room.

At 80Hz the waveform is 14 feet long. For any frequency to be detected by the ear the entire waveform must pass by it. Further, especially in the bass, the ear needs a few iterations to know the note. By that time in most rooms the bass has bounced all over the room and is 100% reverberant.

If there is only one forward firing bass driver and if the room has regular dimensions, there will be a standing wave somewhere in the room. This can cause bass cancellation. You can't equalize it or use bass traps to fix it either, since adding more amplifier power is simply cancelled.

But if the speaker has a rear-firing woofer (as well as one to the front) the standing wave can be vastly reduced in amplitude or eliminated altogether and we're still talking about 100% reverberant bass.

So a lot depends on what the crossover frequency really is. A different phenomena comes into play if the driver is crossed over in the midrange. If the speaker is then at least 5 feet from the wall, any rear-firing information can be used by the ear as echo location, which allows for the sound stage to be more palpable. This is why ESLs or open baffle speakers (of which planar speakers are a subset) can image so well if set up properly.
 
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It could be quite the opposite!

The reason to do so has to do with the length of the waveform and the presence of standing waves in the room.

At 80Hz the waveform is 14 feet long. For any frequency to be detected by the ear the entire waveform must pass by it. Further, especially in the bass, the ear needs a few iterations to know the note. By that time in most rooms the bass has bounced all over the room and is 100% reverberant.

If there is only one forward firing bass driver and if the room has regular dimensions, there will be a standing wave somewhere in the room. This can cause bass cancellation. You can't equalize it or use bass traps to fix it either, since adding more amplifier power is simply cancelled.

But if the speaker has a rear-firing woofer the standing wave can be vastly reduced in amplitude of eliminated altogether and we're still talking about 100% reverberant bass.

So a lot depends on what the crossover frequency really is. A different phenomena comes into play if the driver is crossed over in the midrange. If the speaker is then at least 5 feet from the wall, any rear-firing information can be used by the ear as echo location, which allows for the sound stage to be more palpable. This is why ESLs or open baffle speakers (of which planar speakers are a subset) can image so well if set up properly.
No it cannot be the opposite.
Obviously you thought I meant back firing bass drivers but in this case it is ambiance tweeter and/or mid.
 
No it cannot be the opposite.
Obviously you thought I meant back firing bass drivers but in this case it is ambiance tweeter and/or mid.
If you have rear firing mids and tweets, as long as the speaker is at least 5 feet from the wall behind it (so there's about a 10ms delay), the ear can use that information for echo location. If the speaker is closer to the wall than that, the ear will interpret the echo as harshness, similar to side wall reflections.

Again, this is why planar speakers (including ESLs) and open baffle speakers can image so well.
 
I think you never listened to TAD R1 or WAMM or Gobel Majestic and you just repeat theories in your mind. Dynamic is not equal to efficiency.

What is your home system? Please share a picture.

I listened to Sigma MAAT and it was far from a good speaker. Sigma midrange driver is very un-natural and reminds me plastic coloration.

If you are trying to advertise for Sigma MAAT I have nothing to say.

Living Voice horn is ok but Most modern horns are awful in this market.

High efficiency is good but it is not all the story. I believe Prejudice is not helpful, I think some cone speakers are better than most modern horn speakers.

I am not fan of good theories and I am fan of listening without prejudice
Why do you think that someone who disagrees with you doesn't have auditory experience and is only giving an opinion based on theory in their mind?
I listened to the TAD CR1 with an Ayre SS amp, and to me it had an extremely neutral, precise, studio-polished sound. and at lower volumes, the sound wasn’t engaging or energetic, it felt more impressive than musical.
Personally, I much prefer far cheaper setups like the DeVore O/96 paired with a SET tube amp. they sound far more lively, richer, with better nuances and micro-dynamics, and they don’t feel dead at low volumes.

Yes, Dynamic is not equal to efficiency but they are related in certain ways. in low eff speakers with complex crossovers and uneven impedance curves, you would need to increase the volume to make the sound engaging and fuller. low eff speakers often require more power to produce the same volume, which is why they may not sound as dynamic or full, especially at lower volumes. High eff speakers are better at reproducing subtle details and loud peaks without distortion because they need less power to reach the desired volume.

These are your strange and contrary-to-reality views:

An extremely low-efficiency speaker like TAD with 87 dB sensitivity and significant variations in phase angles, along with an over-damped cabinet, requires at least 400 watts of SS power to come alive, can give you realistic dynamics and liveliness close to the WE, LV, AG horns!!

Egyptian papyrus organic fibers (MAAT) produce a plasticky sound while synthetic beryllium diaphragms (TAD) produce a more natural sound!

Unlike Gryphon and Wilson benesch speakers, which are merely marketing hype, TAD, backed by Pioneer’s significant investment, offers a compact, non-floorstanding speaker priced close to $90K. It is not just marketing hype and delivers a lifelike musical sound similar to that of SET/horn systems!

I have nothing more to say about these.
 
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If you have rear firing mids and tweets, as long as the speaker is at least 5 feet from the wall behind it (so there's about a 10ms delay), the ear can use that information for echo location. If the speaker is closer to the wall than that, the ear will interpret the echo as harshness, similar to side wall reflections.

Again, this is why planar speakers (including ESLs) and open baffle speakers can image so well.
You should connect it with reversed polarity so it acts like a dipole, creating a beautiful 3D image. An interesting speaker in this regard is the Pfleid FRS 20, which is a point source with three tweeters on the sides and top. Their levels are adjustable. full active 8."wideband specs 35hz to 20khz.-+/- 3db.
It is supposed to be able to reproduce square waves, which was advertised in the early 80s
with the help of the tps speaker equalization. Sounds really good
You must translate in english

image.jpeg
 
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If I’m not mistaken Sigma MAAT uses rear drivers and that’s a problem...

Ime it depends on the specifics.

The rear drivers add reverberation and an artificial surround effect to the sound.

Ime there are benefits that rear-firing drivers can contribute without any accompanying downside, including a spatial presentation which is the opposite of "artificial", but again it depends on the specifics.

@Marcus, eyeballing photos on the first page of your thread about the MAAT, it looks like there is a wideband driver underneath the grilled area on the side of the cabinet, behind the tweeter. Am I seeing that correctly? Is there one on each side? Any other non-front-firing-drivers? It looks like the ribbon tweeter operates as a dipole, so its rearward radiation is presumably making a contribution.

Anything else you can tell me about how the non-front-firing drivers are being used would be helpful. Just from what I can see in your photos, it looks very well thought-out to me.

I'm asking because I'd like to get some idea of what the designer is doing so I can write a better reply to @mtemur than "it depends on the specifics".

Thanks!
 
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Yes, you saw that right. It’s a wideband driver but with intentional lower sensitivity (-9dB) and it helps dipolar emission of the Heil tweeter. It covers a frequency range between 400 and 2500 Hz. There’s only one per channel, firing to the inner side. Aldo says “It creates a sense of presence of voices and instruments on the virtual soundstage.” It doesn’t influence the timbre because of low sensitivity. It’s a SEAS unit as is the Alnico midrange. Btw, crossover is first order. Hope that helps.
 
Yes, you saw that right. It’s a wideband driver but with intentional lower sensitivity (-9dB) and it helps dipolar emission of the Heil tweeter. It covers a frequency range between 400 and 2500 Hz. There’s only one per channel, firing to the inner side. Aldo says “It creates a sense of presence of voices and instruments on the virtual soundstage.” It doesn’t influence the timbre because of low sensitivity. It’s a SEAS unit as is the Alnico midrange. Btw, crossover is first order. Hope that helps.

Thank you!

@mtemur, I think there is likely to be both a sound-quality benefit and a spatial-quality benefit from the MAAT's extra side-firing energy (it's more side-firing than rear-firing).

First, I think the spectral balance of the side-firing energy will tend to CORRECT the spectral balance of the in-room reflection field:

Typically the in-room reflection field has a generally downward-sloping spectral balance because speakers tend to become increasingly directional as we go up in frequency. Imo it is desirable to minimize the spectral discrepancy between the direct and reflected sound. The wizzer-coned rear-firing wideband driver will have more upper-end energy, and that across a wider area, than the wizzerless main mindrange cone. There may be some further response-shaping in its crossover filter.

The backwave of the ribbon tweeter is providing the upper frequency portion of the side-firing energy, and again this is corrective: The in-room reflection field usually has a shortage of energy in the upper few octaves, and the ribbon's backwave energy helps to fill that in somewhat, just as the side-firing wideband driver's energy is doing between 400 and 2500 Hz.

Ime when the spectral discrepancy between the direct sound and the reflection field is minimized, timbre is more natural-sounding and listening fatigue is far less likely to occur, unless it's a bad recording.

Now the direction that this side-firing energy is oriented is interesting: The wideband driver seems to be aimed towards the opposite-side wall, a bit behind the other speaker. The ribbon's backwave is less precisely aimed but some of it will go in that same general direction. The result will be a LONG reflection path length for that additional energy. Imo this is highly desirable.

Imo the late-arriving in-room reflections are arguably the most beneficial ones as long as they are spectrally correct. This additional late-onset reflection energy will increase the net amount of energy in the later-arriving reflections, will increase the number of directions it arrives from (making the reflection field more diffuse), and will correct the spectral balance of that late-arrival reflection energy. It will also tend to disrupt the "small room signature" of the playback room (I can explain this in more detail if anyone is interested.) And usually only a little bit more is needed - too much and it can start to be detrimental.

And in case there's any doubt about the benefits of spectrally-correct late-arriving reflections, consider that the physical design and acoustic treatment of studio control rooms deliberately seeks to minimize the early reflections while preserving the later-arriving reflections with their high-frequency content intact.

And imo those spectrally-correct, late-arriving reflections act as "carriers" for the reverberation tails on the recording, which can then deliver the "sense of space" captured on the recording. Which brings up few questions I have for @Marcus:

Does the "sense of space" change significantly from one recording to the next? Do you find that the "sense of space" tends towards "you are there", such that you get the feeling of being immersed in the acoustic space of the recording venue (whether it be real or engineered or both)? Do the sound images seem to be unusually "solid", as if they come from an actual person or instrument occupying physical space? Can you listen for hours and hours with no listening fatigue?

Thanks!
 
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Yes, you saw that right. It’s a wideband driver but with intentional lower sensitivity (-9dB) and it helps dipolar emission of the Heil tweeter. It covers a frequency range between 400 and 2500 Hz. There’s only one per channel, firing to the inner side. Aldo says “It creates a sense of presence of voices and instruments on the virtual soundstage.” It doesn’t influence the timbre because of low sensitivity. It’s a SEAS unit as is the Alnico midrange. Btw, crossover is first order. Hope that helps.
Its this seas driver
 
Can you listen for hours and hours with no listening fatigue?

Thanks!
I heard one for 4 hours and another for most of the day no fatigue. It is more you are there than they are here
 
Why do you think that someone who disagrees with you doesn't have auditory experience and is only giving an opinion based on theory in their mind?

Because It is obvious that your opinion does not come from listening experience. You just repeat other wrong/popular ideas without any valid experience.

I had Audio Note AN-E (high efficiency) and Wilson Alexandria X2 (95db) and TAD R1 for more than 3 years and compared them side by side. I doubt even if you know what dynamic means.

I listened to the TAD CR1 with an Ayre SS amp, and to me it had an extremely neutral, precise, studio-polished sound. and at lower volumes, the sound wasn’t engaging or energetic, it felt more impressive than musical.
Personally, I much prefer far cheaper setups like the DeVore O/96 paired with a SET tube amp. they sound far more lively, richer, with better nuances and micro-dynamics, and they don’t feel dead at low volumes.

If you want to have good sound at lower levels you should have good source and try to have best SNR (high quality ac power, emi/rfi rejection, no ground loop …) in your system. TAD R1 works perfectly at lower volumes even at bass frequencies.

SET/Devore is very limited and it can not give you real dynamics and bass extension.
If you like it then it means you never listened to an high performance system.
The terms like “rich” “engaging” and all of those audiophile words remind me of audio reviewers who have no trusted ears.

Yes, Dynamic is not equal to efficiency but they are related in certain ways. in low eff speakers with complex crossovers and uneven impedance curves, you would need to increase the volume to make the sound engaging and fuller. low eff speakers often require more power to produce the same volume, which is why they may not sound as dynamic or full, especially at lower volumes. High eff speakers are better at reproducing subtle details and loud peaks without distortion because they need less power to reach the desired volume.

These theories are good for you, in real life WAMM, TAD R1 and Gobel Majestic are close to horns.

These are your strange and contrary-to-reality views:

An extremely low-efficiency speaker like TAD with 87 dB sensitivity and significant variations in phase angles, along with an over-damped cabinet, requires at least 400 watts of SS power to come alive, can give you realistic dynamics and liveliness close to the WE, LV, AG horns!!

One measurement in web shows the TAD R1 is above 6ohm with 90db efficiency. Finally the sound will tell us TAD R1 is dynamic or not. If AC quality is good (and low impedance) then TAD R1 is close to horn speakers.
Egyptian papyrus organic fibers (MAAT) produce a plasticky sound while synthetic beryllium diaphragms (TAD) produce a more natural sound!

Beryllium is very different to those plastic drivers.

Unlike Gryphon and Wilson benesch speakers, which are merely marketing hype, TAD, backed by Pioneer’s significant investment, offers a compact, non-floorstanding speaker priced close to $90K. It is not just marketing hype and delivers a lifelike musical sound similar to that of SET/horn systems!

I have nothing more to say about these.

Buy high performance systems and listen in your home to learn those theories/specs are not the whole story
 

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