Isolation Transformer and Balanced Power versus PS Audio Regenerator

[cuntigh]

Tours AVR16 here. Don’t Know the PS Audio . Before the Torus Ihqd several passive filters (Lessloss, Bybee). end game with the Torus.

 

[PhP]

Hi Wil,
about

@Atmasphere, @Kingrex: Opinions about using a PS Audio Power Plant (to regenerate ac mains) in conjunction with (in front of) a Torus rm20?

AC treatment. Filters remove some unwanted harmonics from AC, but at the expense of dynamic softening and balance, not to speak about delicacy that is clearly diminished (listen to harpsichord). Isolation transformers isolate but air isolation between primary and secondary, that said it works like a filter, no more, but with mainly less coloration added. Regenerated AC is the only way to have pure pure AC at home. First it beginning by a transformer and the, it stocks energy. AC is transformed into continus current at less voltage and then with oscillator, pure AC is made up to 110 or 230V with much enough power to drive any system, including amplifiers. I tested many systems and only AC regeneration make a breakthrough in AC purity. When you as Electronic manufacturers that's the solution they employ or recommend. At Munich a famous DAC brand uses a custom regenerator on his DACs and amplifier. I use PS AUDIO P20 to power all my system, included the mono amplifiers. I am surprised that some audiophiles could say that regenerators cannot drive amplifiers. At max output level (much over 100dB in the listening room), power output is 30% and APURNA™ amplifier are 75A max, 4500w on peak signal, 450w@4ohm. I tested with friends here, amplifiers into P20 and direct from mains, the sound is much more refined, dynamic, and detailed without compression using the amplifiers from only 1 P20. And PS AUDIO is not only fantastic, it is dead quiet as the competition uses fans or have not enough output power. When you see the AC wave input here with some facts, DC, and perfect AC after regeneration, it's easy to understand why it's the more effective solution.
Also, PS AUDIO specify that using P20 needs to use NO AC treatment after it, only direct transmission because you destroy partially the pure SineWave. Before any critical listening, try the clean function 5 seconds, highs will be as sweet as possible, delicate tone shifts...

 

[treitz3]

No isolation device eliminates ALL noise, including isolation X-nsfrmrs. To say otherwise is (respectfully)....

I'll just leave it at that.

Tom

 

[PhP]

You are right, isolation device like filters of transformers do not eliminate all noise and they induce problems that are not present for AC, but regenerator remove more than 99% and it's the only way to have "pure" AC. The problem is that they treat AC not all the 3 inputs in mains. They do not treat efficiently earth... more about this later. I made test for 2 years and this lead to the conclusion that all should be treated.

 

[highstream]

A side comment, having never used an isolation transformer: I’m not recalling if it was on a forum or his daily blog that sPaul McGowan described his regenerators as 90% successful several years ago. I haven’t heard of further improvements. I use a P15 fed from a Wyred power conditioner, which helps the regenerator with noise. But what really took quiet to another level was grounding the tube adapters on my Lampi dac and, most substantially, running a combination of signal and chassis grounds from a pair of Russ Andrews plug-in RF routers (from a separate electrical circuit than the system).

I’ve read from time to time comments critical of the sound using PS Audio regenerators as compared to power conditioners, including from one former dealer of theirs (before they took sales in house), but haven’t had better conditioners (or isolation transformers) to make a comparison.

 

[Amir]

This industry has no proper solution for ac power

Do not waste your money

 

[PhP]

The Wyred as some conditionner used some stage to remove AC defects like harmonics and DC. However I found (by ear) that no DC blocker is efficient because AC mains has rarely DC, DC offset is due to the difference between positive and negative sine wave and yes it induce transformer noise that saturate (Wyred). That's true my amplifiers , anomy Taiko extreme was exhibiting transformer aerial noise. So I think it's not necessary to have any conditionner before P15 or P20 (much better) as it could slow the sound. Using Lampizator or any tubes units is a bit less sensitive to AC (I was TENOR AUDIO dealers some years ago). Right grounding helps a lot to improve as I said in my previous post. But There is 2 ways toi ground. Grounding chassis (that remove unwanted micro current and voltage from the gear circuit) but also and may be more important grounding AC. This stops all your other audio gears, and home appliances to "talk" to your audio system. This is a major improvement that gives constant fluid sound, silky, pure and ..... . About PS, my input AC distorsion is mainly 2% with bad sine wave, output distorsion is less than 0,1%. All other systems have much less effects. ISOTEK makes very effective regenerators but much more expensive and use fan.
I tested so many conditioners passive, active, no one was kept here since I tried PS P20 latest gen (older were less good).

 

[PhP]

I disagree Amir. Yes conditioners are expensive products that lead always to mitigate results, but try a regenerator, you will ear what you missed for years (like me )

This industry has no proper solution for ac power

Do not waste your money

.

 

[Amir]

I disagree Amir. Yes conditioners are expensive products that lead always to mitigate results, but try a regenerator, you will ear what you missed for years (like me )

.

The power of AC regenerators in this market is less than 3KVA. Linear power supply of solidstate amplifiers needs high transient power for example FM Acoustics claims their high power amplifiers needs 60A linear transient current so all AC regenerators in this market compress dynamics.

All balanced isolation transformers lower the noise but good sound come from proper AC polarity not balanced AC voltage.

All isolation transformers in this market have current limits and also impact on bass.

All AC filters limit dynamics of SS power amplifiers.

Fullrange high performance dynamic audio systems show you the limits of these AC solutions.

 

[Amir]

Telos Taiwan is producing some AC solution products and I did not listened to Telos so I have no idea about Telos.

 

[Zeotrope]

Hi Wil,
about

AC treatment. Filters remove some unwanted harmonics from AC, but at the expense of dynamic softening and balance, not to speak about delicacy that is clearly diminished (listen to harpsichord). Isolation transformers isolate but air isolation between primary and secondary, that said it works like a filter, no more, but with mainly less coloration added. Regenerated AC is the only way to have pure pure AC at home. First it beginning by a transformer and the, it stocks energy. AC is transformed into continus current at less voltage and then with oscillator, pure AC is made up to 110 or 230V with much enough power to drive any system, including amplifiers. I tested many systems and only AC regeneration make a breakthrough in AC purity. When you as Electronic manufacturers that's the solution they employ or recommend. At Munich a famous DAC brand uses a custom regenerator on his DACs and amplifier. I use PS AUDIO P20 to power all my system, included the mono amplifiers. I am surprised that some audiophiles could say that regenerators cannot drive amplifiers. At max output level (much over 100dB in the listening room), power output is 30% and APURNA™ amplifier are 75A max, 4500w on peak signal, 450w@4ohm. I tested with friends here, amplifiers into P20 and direct from mains, the sound is much more refined, dynamic, and detailed without compression using the amplifiers from only 1 P20. And PS AUDIO is not only fantastic, it is dead quiet as the competition uses fans or have not enough output power. When you see the AC wave input here with some facts, DC, and perfect AC after regeneration, it's easy to understand why it's the more effective solution.
Also, PS AUDIO specify that using P20 needs to use NO AC treatment after it, only direct transmission because you destroy partially the pure SineWave. Before any critical listening, try the clean function 5 seconds, highs will be as sweet as possible, delicate tone shifts...

I had a P20 for years. Unfortunately, the act of regenerating the AC adds noise. Furthermore, you are not really regenerating "pure" AC because you are using incoming AC to create the "new" AC. Incoming noise will pass through to the output.
I could hear it with my high sensitivity horns. As the P20 heated up, there was more white noise coming through the speakers.
It also doesn't handle dynamic peaks as well as the Shunyata Denali v2. I replaced the P20 with two Denali 6000 v2 and performance is much better.

I think if you have very poor incoming AC (e.g., voltage is significantly above 120 or 240 and/or THD is > 2-3%), then a regenerator may be better. In my case, incoming voltage is ~123V and THD is ~2-3%.

 

[wil]

My mains THD is typically between 2.5 - 3.5%; Voltage 123-124. Odd order harmonics in 3rd, 7th, 9th, 11th.
In the sine wave below, the blue is Voltage and the red is Current. As evidenced by the Current waveform, my power factor is low at 50 - 60%.

I've always been curious if the low PF has any effect on the Voltage harmonics. Yesterday I plugged in an air compressor motor and heat gun which brought the power factor up to 97%. It improved the Current harmonics but had no effect on the Voltage sinewave or harmonics. It did bring Voltage down to 121. .

A more practical way to correct PF is to use several incandescent light bulbs. I have listened to the system with the PF boosted this way, but could not detect a sq difference.

I'm aware of the noise the Power Plants produce at output, but as per my original question, I wonder if having the Torus after the PowerPlant, if it would theoretically be taking care of the amplifier noise coming out of the PowerPlant?

 

[Kingrex]

Hi Wil,
about

AC treatment. Filters remove some unwanted harmonics from AC, but at the expense of dynamic softening and balance, not to speak about delicacy that is clearly diminished (listen to harpsichord). Isolation transformers isolate but air isolation between primary and secondary, that said it works like a filter, no more, but with mainly less coloration added. Regenerated AC is the only way to have pure pure AC at home. First it beginning by a transformer and the, it stocks energy. AC is transformed into continus current at less voltage and then with oscillator, pure AC is made up to 110 or 230V with much enough power to drive any system, including amplifiers. I tested many systems and only AC regeneration make a breakthrough in AC purity. When you as Electronic manufacturers that's the solution they employ or recommend. At Munich a famous DAC brand uses a custom regenerator on his DACs and amplifier. I use PS AUDIO P20 to power all my system, included the mono amplifiers. I am surprised that some audiophiles could say that regenerators cannot drive amplifiers. At max output level (much over 100dB in the listening room), power output is 30% and APURNA™ amplifier are 75A max, 4500w on peak signal, 450w@4ohm. I tested with friends here, amplifiers into P20 and direct from mains, the sound is much more refined, dynamic, and detailed without compression using the amplifiers from only 1 P20. And PS AUDIO is not only fantastic, it is dead quiet as the competition uses fans or have not enough output power. When you see the AC wave input here with some facts, DC, and perfect AC after regeneration, it's easy to understand why it's the more effective solution.
Also, PS AUDIO specify that using P20 needs to use NO AC treatment after it, only direct transmission because you destroy partially the pure SineWave. Before any critical listening, try the clean function 5 seconds, highs will be as sweet as possible, delicate tone shifts...

This is just plain wrong. Yes, I am a Torus dealer, but it's the only product I sell outside of my panels because they work. Don't forget, transformers are everywhere in electrical distribution. There is one outside your house in the street. I pretty much never hear a softening of dynamics through a Torus. I almost universally hear much better harmonics, layering of instruments and a sense of naturalness.

I never sorted out what a good battery power supply would do. There were a lot of roadblocks to doing it properly. The regenerators or inverters are noisy themselves. They have a 20,000 hertz switching frequency, and possibly a second 100,000 hertz switching frequency. They are FET. Very limited in power handling. They heat up and clip. Whey they clip, its a hard flattop on the sine wave. That creates heat in your amp and the Genie comes out of the bottle.
Having said that, for the most part, I have not heard anybody report they have heard their solar system, which is the same inverter set up as a regenerator in your system. Its just not driving your system. I have briefly listened to Tesla powerwalls running a nice stereo. There was a subtle change, but I was not able to spend enough time examining it, to understand all that was going on.

The only 2 filters I have experience with on a power supply I optimized are Torus and Shunyata and AQ. All work optimally on the front end. I think Torus works better on large SS power amps. I can give you 140 amps of power with a Torus. No one else can do that. Someone with SET and horns may want an even heavier filtering hand on amps to lower noise.

You can stack filters. But you shouldn't need to.

I believe one filter on power is enough. After that, look at devices i the room. I am waiting on my Heartsound Holostage to arrive. I really want to attach them to my electrical panel to see what happens. I will have a chance to take them to a house with a BACCH. There we can test the impulse response. Said house with BACCH uses a Torus to power the system. There was no loss of dynamics. Just better performance.

 

[microstrip]

I had a P20 for years. Unfortunately, the act of regenerating the AC adds noise. Furthermore, you are not really regenerating "pure" AC because you are using incoming AC to create the "new" AC. Incoming noise will pass through to the output.
I could hear it with my high sensitivity horns. As the P20 heated up, there was more white noise coming through the speakers.
It also doesn't handle dynamic peaks as well as the Shunyata Denali v2. I replaced the P20 with two Denali 6000 v2 and performance is much better.

I think if you have very poor incoming AC (e.g., voltage is significantly above 120 or 240 and/or THD is > 2-3%), then a regenerator may be better. In my case, incoming voltage is ~123V and THD is ~2-3%.

Are you addressing just subjective noise in music or objective noise, that can measured and specified?

IMO if your P20 adds white noise coming from the speakers, it must be faulty.

 

[Lagonda]

I disagree Amir. Yes conditioners are expensive products that lead always to mitigate results, but try a regenerator, you will ear what you missed for years (like me )

.

It really depend on where you are living, in some power unstable countries and large cities you often benefit from power regeneration. If you live in small towns close to transformer stations, chances are your best result will be without regeneration. I only use my PS Audio for US gear that is frequency specific everything else sounds better without.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This industry has no proper solution for ac power

Do not waste your money

I disagree Amir. Yes conditioners are expensive products that lead always to mitigate results, but try a regenerator, you will ear what you missed for years (like me )

.

agree.

i live in a modern housing development built in the late 90's, with a single transformer at the street for each multi--acre lot. out in the country away from any industry. then i ran a 100 foot conduit to my barn and used a robust 70 amp panel with all copper and it's own ground rod. used that for 7 years which sounded wonderful. conventional but solid.

at which point i added a 400 pound in wall mounted Equi=tech wall panel and 10kva regenerator which certainly boosted my performance all around. i can still switch to dirty power and my conventional 100amp HVAC/lights panel in my barn any time to A/B as i have those dirty outlets around my room.

it's not close.

sure it's anecdotal but seems obvious the better way to go.

 

[Amir]

agree.

i live in a modern housing development built in the late 90's, with a single transformer at the street for each multi--acre lot. out in the country away from any industry. then i ran a 100 foot conduit to my barn and used a robust 70 amp panel with all copper and it's own ground rod. used that for 7 years which sounded wonderful. conventional but solid.

at which point i added a 400 pound in wall mounted Equi=tech wall panel and 10kva regenerator which certainly boosted my performance all around. i can still switch to dirty power and my conventional 100amp HVAC/lights panel in my barn any time to A/B as i have those dirty outlets around my room.

it's not close.

sure it's anecdotal but seems obvious the better way to go.

Mike, which regenerator do you use?

I did not see 10kva regenerator in audio market?

 

[Kingrex]

My mains THD is typically between 2.5 - 3.5%; Voltage 123-124. Odd order harmonics in 3rd, 7th, 9th, 11th.
In the sine wave below, the blue is Voltage and the red is Current. As evidenced by the Current waveform, my power factor is low at 50 - 60%.

I've always been curious if the low PF has any effect on the Voltage harmonics. Yesterday I plugged in an air compressor motor and heat gun which brought the power factor up to 97%. It improved the Current harmonics but had no effect on the Voltage sinewave or harmonics. It did bring Voltage down to 121. .

A more practical way to correct PF is to use several incandescent light bulbs. I have listened to the system with the PF boosted this way, but could not detect a sq difference.

I'm aware of the noise the Power Plants produce at output, but as per my original question, I wonder if having the Torus after the PowerPlant, if it would theoretically be taking care of the amplifier noise coming out of the PowerPlant?

Torus filter corner is around 50,000 herts. Youe power plant is probably switching around 20,000 herts. The fundimental noise would not be changed. But the 3rd and 5th harmonic would be filtered, so it may sound better. You have a Torus, correct? Are you thinking of getting a P20?

 

[PhP]

This calculation is wrong. I c

The power of AC regenerators in this market is less than 3KVA. Linear power supply of solidstate amplifiers needs high transient power for example FM Acoustics claims their high power amplifiers needs 60A linear transient current so all AC regenerators in this market compress dynamics.

All balanced isolation transformers lower the noise but good sound come from proper AC polarity not balanced AC voltage.

All isolation transformers in this market have current limits and also impact on bass.

All AC filters limit dynamics of SS power amplifiers.

Fullrange high performance dynamic audio systems show you the limits of these AC solutions.

I checked with many electronic manufacturers and the result is this : all modern amplifiers take around 50% of the power for the power supply (i.e. the stored energy) and if needed a complement from the mains. this permits the fastest response under transients and huge dynamics. For example, my APURNA™ Soprano mono blocs are rated at 75 A max and 4500W max, 450 watt under stable 4 ohm load. This is why these amplifier use 230x5A (from the internal power supply) = 1150 watts for more than 90% of huge demands. When demands are higher the amplifiers take the complement from the mains that said 1000 or 2000w more for few seconds. As the amplifiers fuses are rated at 10 A, they can't take more than 2300W from the mains, this for a very short time. So any regenerators rated at 2500 W or more is a sufficient source even for amplifiers that could output 60 or 75A. If the amplifiers are more powerful, they only require 2 AC regenerators. I know a French amplifier that is rated at 330A max linear transient at 230V, it do not need 75900 watts, as it is limited by AC mains at 3680 or 4600w depending if use 16 or 20A mains. This prove that most of the energy used during listening even loud passages are coming from the power supply of the amplifiers ‍.
That said, yes isolation transformers, AC filters limits energy and mostly transients.
I can say that full range Alsyvox Botticelli X powered by APURNA™ Soprano limited monoblocks are capable of realistic music recreation, without any trace of compression and this up to sound levels than are similar to a concert hall (around 114/115 dB).

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, which regenerator do you use?

I did not see 10kva regenerator in audio market?

Equi=Tech 10WQ

it's not a plug in stand alone box. it's a 400 pound beast that an electrical contractor mounts in the wall and is hard wired. mine has a couple options; the OFC (oxygen-free copper) and three EMF filtered circuits for my digital gear. and i had my contractor remove the GFI's on each circuit and replace them with solid copper wire to further reduce noise and increase dynamics. he was hesitant but since my room has no plumbing and children are not present he has ok with it. he viewed my room as a quasi-commercial studio and not residential.