dCS Varese short review

[PeterA]

IMO the purpose of the forum is providing information for all its members, not free advertising. Pricing is a fundamental issue and should be released. dCS prices are public.

In your opinion.

You didn’t answer my question. Why don’t you just call Sterling Trayle and ask him yourself about his prices?

Surely you understand that few people pay full retail for expensive audio components. Even though it would be very revealing for each of us to disclose what we actually paid for our gear, I don’t expect people to share that information and I respect their unwillingness to do so.

 

[Amir]

In fact I appreciate your views and really enjoy reading your opinions. Thumbs up showed it, even if we show some disagreement. But in fact I consider transparency a must in this hobby and I find this "optimization" issues a nebulous affair, that IMO benefit from proper discussion - it is why I answered to your posts. BTW, I had no problem with cross posting in threads - on the contrary I consider it a positive aspect of WBF.

Although not directly or intentionally, strong accusations against the high-end in general are being made when someone considers the numbers and status of poor setting up that you refer. When people find that they are not free to say what other people do in their systems and consider set up proprietary, I feel really sad. Probably others disagree, but it is my way of looking at high-end. And I am very cautious with "unique" messianic people that can't be scrutinized - I don't doubt they do excellent work, but can't see them as the model for this hobby.

I have no doubts that mysticism is part of high-end - we can't have rationale explanations for everything. I exclude some paths in the hobby because of it. But I hope that speaker placement is not part of it - we can't have high-end systems without it.

For example if you upgrade dCS Vivaldi (80 score) to dCS Varese (100 score) you will get 20 sonic score (equal to 20% better sound) but if you find proper position for your speaker (you can not find DPOLS and you should ask Stirling for speaker placement) you will get 1000 score.

Speaker position is far from any gear upgrade

 

[Amir]

The typical hide and seek game that makes some people consider this is a suspicious hobby ... What is the point of referring to services if you are not able to quote their prices?

There is no hide, around $5k for three days of full optimization plus all trip costs like flight ticket and …

 

[microstrip]

In your opinion.

You didn’t answer my question. Why don’t you just call Sterling Trayle and ask him yourself about his prices?

Again, someone posted about having got such services, I asked him. It is the natural thing to do in a forum. He has now supplied all the details.

Surely you understand that few people pay full retail for expensive audio components. Even though it would be very revealing for each of us to disclose what we actually paid for our gear, I don’t expect people to share that information and I respect their unwillingness to do so.

IMO what is relevant for general discussions is the recommended retail price. Although in general audiophiles like to share details of their good deals - we feel good when we can get them - I can't see the relevance of disclosing private arrangements. Surely as you point we have exceptions - particularly in cartridges or cables, where real prices in general are significantly discounted from RRP.

 

[microstrip]

For example if you upgrade dCS Vivaldi (80 score) to dCS Varese (100 score) you will get 20 sonic score (equal to 20% better sound) but if you find proper position for your speaker (you can not find DPOLS and you should ask Stirling for speaker placement) you will get 1000 score.

Speaker position is far from any gear upgrade

Thanks for making it so clear, but your maths seems wrong - 20% improvement over 80 points is 96, not 100!

When high-end becomes mystic, everything can go in it, but I am not a DPOLS believer. http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=2&postID=15010#15010 and I do not mix the Stirling Trayle optimization subject with DPOLS.

 

[andromedaaudio]

You got it all wrong .
DCS rossini is 75 % % Wadax being 100 % .
DCS Vivaldi / APEX is 65 % Varese i dont think i have heard yet so i leave that open

 

[Amir]

Thanks for making it so clear, but your maths seems wrong - 20% improvement over 80 points is 96, not 100!

When high-end becomes mystic, everything can go in it, but I am not a DPOLS believer. http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=2&postID=15010#15010 and I do not mix the Stirling Trayle optimization subject with DPOLS.

Romy believes DPOLS is exactly the same Stirling Trayle does for speaker placement.

 

[microstrip]

Romy believes DPOLS is exactly the same Stirling Trayle does for speaker placement.

Does Stirling Trayle say exactly the same to his customers?

 

[Amir]

The story of speaker placement:

My friend Mr. Roy is in CA , he visited Kevin (Living Voice) in UK and enjoyed the LV horn in Kevin’s showroom. The sound was magical and very emotional/sexy. He bought the LV horn and listened to his kondo LV horn in his home in CA. Roy called me and told me the sound is very different to what he heard in UK, I told him the speaker position should change so Roy called Stirling Trayle for speaker placement. After 3 days of hard work Stirling changed the sound dramatically.

you can not get that sound without Stirling Trayle even if you pay $2,000,000 for audio gear.

 

[Amir]

Does Stirling Trayle say exactly the same to his customers?

“Stirling Trayle and I exchange a few you messages. I sent him a link to DPoLS translation and he immediately identified some weaknesses of the article, very impressive. I find that what he does is exceptionally interesting and uniquely rare. I have a reputation do not patronize on recommend any business or services in audio but in this case I would like to make exception and provide my very strong recommendation to use Stirling Trayle while she is still able to operate. As I understand he is in his 60s and after he will be gone this knowledge, from epistemological perspective will be lost. I did suggest him to write a book, I do not think he will, and it is very unfortunate.

Romy the Cat”

http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=2&postID=27726#27726

 

[microstrip]

The story of speaker placement:

My friend Mr. Roy is in CA , he visited Kevin (Living Voice) in UK and enjoyed the LV horn in Kevin’s showroom. The sound was magical and very emotional/sexy. He bought the LV horn and listened to his kondo LV horn in his home in CA. Roy called me and told me the sound is very different to what he heard in UK, I told him the speaker position should change and Roy called Stirling Trayle for speaker placement. After 3 days of hard work Stirling changed the sound dramatically.

you can not get that sound without Stirling Trayle even if you pay $2,000,000 for audio gear.

The thread is really becoming very interesting, and I hope it will be a long one, but it will soon become mixed with new dCS Varese details - perhaps we can go on in this old thread created by Tom long ago.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-sumiko-setup.5894/

Could moderators move this block of posts to this old thread? There is some continuation between what was said twelve years ago and we are discussing now.

Or even to this more recent one:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/detailed-speaker-setup-and-optimization.36935/

 

[PeterA]

The story of speaker placement:

My friend Mr. Roy is in CA , he visited Kevin (Living Voice) in UK and enjoyed the LV horn in Kevin’s showroom. The sound was magical and very emotional/sexy. He bought the LV horn and listened to his kondo LV horn in his home in CA. Roy called me and told me the sound is very different to what he heard in UK, I told him the speaker position should change so Roy called Stirling Trayle for speaker placement. After 3 days of hard work Stirling changed the sound dramatically.

you can not get that sound without Stirling Trayle even if you pay $2,000,000 for audio gear.

Amir, does your friend system now sound like the one he heard in the United Kingdom or is it still different and does he think it sounds better because of Stirling Trayle’s efforts?

 

[Amir]

Amir, does your friend system now sound like the one he heard in the United Kingdom or is it still different and does he think it sounds better because of Stirling Trayle’s efforts?

Dear Peter, very very good question.
Now the sound is far better than before but not exactly the same he heard in UK. Stirling told me two different rooms (with 100% identical gear) will sound different (at DPOLS). my friend Roy believes he should ask Stirling Trayle again and ask him to put more time and effort to get even better sound.

I think it is possible to get even better sound if Stirling Trayle visit him again.

 

[JiminGa]

In your opinion.

You didn’t answer my question. Why don’t you just call Sterling Trayle and ask him yourself about his prices?

Surely you understand that few people pay full retail for expensive audio components. Even though it would be very revealing for each of us to disclose what we actually paid for our gear, I don’t expect people to share that information and I respect their unwillingness to do s

Dear Peter, very very good question.
Now the sound is far better than before but not exactly the same he heard in UK. Stirling told me two different rooms (with 100% identical gear) will sound different (at DPOLS). my friend Roy believes he should ask Stirling Trayle again and ask him to put more time and effort to get even better sound.

I think it is possible to get even better sound if Stirling Trayle visit him again.

Possibly but the room will dictate what is possible. A 7/10 room can be at best a 7 if optimally set up. A 10/10 room can be a 10 if optimally set up.

 

[microstrip]

Dear Peter, very very good question.
Now the sound is far better than before but not exactly the same he heard in UK. Stirling told me two different rooms (with 100% identical gear) will sound different (at DPOLS). my friend Roy believes he should ask Stirling Trayle again and ask him to put more time and effort to get even better sound.

I think it is possible to get even better sound if Stirling Trayle visit him again.

As far as I have read Stirling never claimed to use the "dead points of live sound" Romy the Cat interpretation of the original russian idea about "Live Sound Points" as addressed in the original paper.

IMO we should separate the excellent optimization work carried by Stirling Trayle and others, presented with evidence and substance in many reports, from these DPoLS or LSP theories.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Romy the Cat interpretation of the original russian idea about "Live Sound Points" as addressed in the original paper.

He is basically filling the room with cigar smoke .
Not really scientific afaic

 

[JiminGa]

No two people do things exactly the same way. He locks in one speaker first and goes from there. A take on the Sumiko method. He’s not the only one. The people I know who do this work and have worked with him have respect for his success.

 

[rDin]

Late to this discussion, and the point may have already been made, but if the Varese is as good as being claimed; the game changer, the quantum leap, the paradigm shift, then my immediate thought is that digital is broken and has been all along. Everything that came before. Broken. Alternatively, there's a high level of delusion going on here. I'm very much not an ASR fan, but I can see them looking at this £265K DAC and thinking we truly are insane. But how long until the next game changer comes along, showing that the Varese didn't "fix" digital after all...?

 

[Tangram]

Late to this discussion, and the point may have already been made, but if the Varese is as good as being claimed; the game changer, the quantum leap, the paradigm shift, then my immediate thought is that digital is broken and has been all along. Everything that came before. Broken. Alternatively, there's a high level of delusion going on here. I'm very much not an ASR fan, but I can see them looking at this £265K DAC and thinking we truly are insane. But how long until the next game changer comes along, showing that the Varese didn't "fix" digital after all...?

Exactly. And on top of that, US$350K for a component that will likely succumb to the audio version Moore’s Law on the used market. Every time it changes hands it will be for half the previous selling price.

 

[Lee]

Late to this discussion, and the point may have already been made, but if the Varese is as good as being claimed; the game changer, the quantum leap, the paradigm shift, then my immediate thought is that digital is broken and has been all along. Everything that came before. Broken. Alternatively, there's a high level of delusion going on here. I'm very much not an ASR fan, but I can see them looking at this £265K DAC and thinking we truly are insane. But how long until the next game changer comes along, showing that the Varese didn't "fix" digital after all...?

You don't need prior things to be "broken" to have innovations that move the needle. I think the better way to look at it is to think of digital playback as continual refinement. But what makes a big advance like the Varese are refinements that make the sound more lifelike. Vocals are in the room lifelike with Varese. I think the timing technology and mono dac configuration makes that possible.

Likewise, the bit diffusion technology from MSB I heard at Axpona is a big step forward on the Cascade.