Speaker positioning, a black art or ??

[PeterA]

I do not think speaker positioning is a black art. It can be taught and learned. Jim Smith's book and DVD are good places to start. I agree with MikeL that one must start with a reference or idea of the sound he wants. From there, one must proceed in a methodical, precise and deliberate way. Live music and a willingness to listen analytically help. Patience and experience help too. Listener location and speak position and orientation can do more to improve the sound of one's system then almost any other change. And all it takes is time and effort.

The result can indeed be magical, and in that sense, one is left wondering how these mechanical and electrical devices can sound so convincing, and bring so much joy to the music lover, but I would not call it a black art.

 

[ack]

My experience is that a lot of people just don't know how to properly set things up, because they don't know what to look for. In other words, they don't know how speaker positioning affects the sound; in some cases, they apparently just don't care. I visited a semi-audiophile friend last week who bought a new pair of Klipsch, and as Davey said, they were set flat against the back wall. He is more concerned about the amp and CD player, and minimal visual impact to the room. His setup has no real center image, it's either the left or the right speaker; and with a fairly boomy bass which he likes - apparently, to him, that's the right set up because that's what pleases his ears. So as I said, a semi-audiophile, and he's not alone. He just cares to listen to music in the background - nothing really wrong with that either.

 

[microstrip]

I do not think speaker positioning is a black art. It can be taught and learned. Jim Smith's book and DVD are good places to start. I agree with MikeL that one must start with a reference or idea of the sound he wants. From there, one must proceed in a methodical, precise and deliberate way. Live music and a willingness to listen analytically help. Patience and experience help too. Listener location and speak position and orientation can do more to improve the sound of one's system then almost any other change. And all it takes is time and effort.

The result can indeed be magical, and in that sense, one is left wondering how these mechanical and electrical devices can sound so convincing, and bring so much joy to the music lover, but I would not call it a black art.

Peter,

Well, you are just summarizing why I considered it "black art". Unless you invest a lot of time and effort and have some (maybe a lot of) luck most users will not have real success in this art. I have read Jim Smith's book, many articles about different techniques in speaker placement such as Sumiko or Wilson methods, analytical methods based in measurements and computer techniques, reasonable experience with live music and still feel that the I will always lack the experience that would allow me to use my knowledge systematically - audio is an hobby and specially a subjective hobby.

Yes, it can be taught and learned. But the more experiences I read - yes I remember reading your experiences and many people having similar structure systems in this and other forums - the more I remain persuaded that in practice it behaves most of the time like black art - and it is why wise people many times call for a wizard, and we have so few good wizards.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

to me the 'black art' part is that you use aural memory to check progress on changes. your mind's eye confirms or denies change. and your mind processing the previous steps tells you if you are getting closer or farther away from the target.....and in what ways. and for me, getting feedback for others who know my system and preferences well, kept me going forward....and helped me to consider steps which did make positive differences. that helps too.

I suppose I wish I had Jack's more technical underpinnings of knowledge and experience to support my 'experienced' subjective approach to speaker/listening position correctness. it might be better, but not certainly better. or maybe read a book about it.

I know I'm thrilled at where things are right now.

 

[DaveyF]

to me the 'black art' part is that you use aural memory to check progress on changes. your mind's eye confirms or denies change. and your mind processing the previous steps tells you if you are getting closer or farther away from the target.....and in what ways. and for me, getting feedback for others who know my system and preferences well, kept me going forward....and helped me to consider steps which did make positive differences. that helps too.

I suppose I wish I had Jack's more technical underpinnings of knowledge and experience to support my 'experienced' subjective approach to speaker/listening position correctness. it might be better, but not certainly better. or maybe read a book about it.

I know I'm thrilled at where things are right now.

Great post, Mike. Agree 100%

Here's the other thing, don't make the mistake of offering advice to a lot of a'philes. The reaction is usually one of disdain and denial. Once the speakers are placed, they seem unwilling to accept the possibility that a different positioning, or for that matter location in the room, could be a positive. ( I'm certain that many have spent good time positioning their speakers and therefore aren't open to the idea of change...fair enough, particularly if the sound is to their liking....but if it isn't??) I have seen this issue on a couple of occasions, recently when a fellow a'phile friend ( very experienced) offered this assistance to a newbie. The newbie had placed the speakers along the short wall and essentially against the wall...no room to breath at all..and we are talking Maggie's here ( panels). The resulting sound to my ears- and clearly to my friends ears, was a fraction of what could be obtained with 'correct' positioning. Nope, the newbie was having none of it...which is his prerogative of course, but what a waste of a good speaker, lol.
Here's the truly interesting thing, after a few weeks, the newbie decides his system isn't to his liking and sells the speakers---replacing them with very large floor standers. I imagine they are not long for his small room.

 

[ack]

Here's the other thing, don't make the mistake of offering advice to a lot of a'philes. The reaction is usually one of disdain and denial.

Wise words!!! I have experienced this a number of times myself.

 

[Diapason]

Black art or not, I'm starting to think that I don't have the temperament to get the best out of positioning as I find the whole process infuriating in the extreme. If somebody would like to come to my house and set things up at their best for their own entertainment and enjoyment, I'd be delighted to delegate my happiness point!

 

[Rodney Gold]

I agree.. often solicited advice is subsequently dismissed .. on the other hand , I have a pal that always wants to me to mess with my setup cos it doesnt conform to what he likes...I no longer invite him over..

 

[microstrip]

Great post, Mike. Agree 100%

Here's the other thing, don't make the mistake of offering advice to a lot of a'philes. The reaction is usually one of disdain and denial. Once the speakers are placed, they seem unwilling to accept the possibility that a different positioning, or for that matter location in the room, could be a positive. (...)

Well, fortunately no audiophile ever entered my room and suggested me to change the position of my speakers ... I would not be very receptive, unless it was David Wilson when I owned Wilson speakers or a knowledgeable expert who would carry the full job of optimization ...

I have been asked for advice in situ in many situations and most of the time I just say "I do not know". And it is true, I really do not know what to suggest. But as all audiophiles, I would love to suggest what resulted in my system to please my preference.

 

[JackD201]

to me the 'black art' part is that you use aural memory to check progress on changes. your mind's eye confirms or denies change. and your mind processing the previous steps tells you if you are getting closer or farther away from the target.....and in what ways. and for me, getting feedback for others who know my system and preferences well, kept me going forward....and helped me to consider steps which did make positive differences. that helps too.

I suppose I wish I had Jack's more technical underpinnings of knowledge and experience to support my 'experienced' subjective approach to speaker/listening position correctness. it might be better, but not certainly better. or maybe read a book about it.

I know I'm thrilled at where things are right now.

The only difference is I get to use fancy names Mike LOL

I know what Davey means when people just can't seem to accept a new arrangement. We are all visual by nature and if one gets accustomed to seeing a lot of toe in or having speakers close or away from a wall, altering that when a new speaker comes in can cause some serious cognitive dissonance. Sometimes it takes an act of faith in their dealer or a trusted friend to overcome that. Without that nudge the owner tends to limit the range of experimentation.

In the end I think it really is all about experimentation. It's one of the few things in this hobby that's absolutely free AND can be reversed at any time. There's no reason not to try. The only advice I'd tack on to that would be to make sure that one does so with as little stress as possible and do it at a leisurely pace.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Speaker positioning is a black art as long one doesnt measure freq response at the listening positioning lol .
measuring is knowing .
No serious its quite room and speaker dependable and by listening and expirience one can get very good results without measuring , but i like to see on a graph what i m hearing , before i open my mouth about things being acccurate haha

 

[caesar]

Interesting thread. I agree that it's a combination of preference and getting used to a certain sound.

Yet if I were doing it from scratch, my gut reaction is to get the speaker designer (or his well-trained proxy) to tell the customer how things should be set up. That way, the customer will likely be getting the most out of it, and if this setup may sound strange at first, he will eventually get used to the sound. Gear is expensive, and this service should be part of the price.

 

[PeterA]

... I have a pal that always wants to me to mess with my setup cos it doesnt conform to what he likes...I no longer invite him over..

So true. I'm open to opinions, and I often learn from them, but if someone comes over and constantly criticizes the system, or specific components, despite what the owner and others think, it can get mighty tiresome.

 

[andromedaaudio]

It also matters off course if you have a well designed speaker FR wise from the start , if the FR sucks you can move them all day without very accurate/good results , which even 20 K on cables cant solve lol
imo it also has to have sufficient overlays in drivers so you dont get a 5 db suckout if you move your head " 15 cm "

 

[DaveyF]

It also matters off course if you have a well designed speaker FR wise from the start , if the FR sucks you can move them all day without very accurate/good results , which even 20 K on cables cant solve lol
imo it also has to have sufficient overlays in drivers so you dont get a 5 db suckout if you move your head " 15 cm "

Agreed, but even if you have a poorly designed speaker, you will still get the most out of it IF the positioning in the room is maximized. As Jack stated, this is one of the cheapest and easiest things to do in audio and one that can be reversed at any time...so why not???Except I have noticed that many people will not do this...and to my surprise, many dealers and manufacturer's refuse to as well!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So true. I'm open to opinions, and I often learn from them, but if someone comes over and constantly criticizes the system, or specific components, despite what the owner and others think, it can get mighty tiresome.

some of us have regular visitors; listening mates. we understand each other's biases, tastes, and blind spots. I'm so fortunate to have a few local friends who have visited regularly dozens of times over the years.

when these regulars have a comment, I listen. sometimes it hurts for a bit. but it always ends up as a valuable data point I can return to for a bit of reality. where these buddies can really help is when I get a head of steam on some change or thing I'm trying to make happen. then their insight or suppressed ideas about my set-up become golden nuggets of opportunity. they might have sat there through a few sessions thinking about what they might want to tell me, but wait until my mind is open. then when I'm ready they bestow on me their gift of objectivity. priceless!!!

one time visitor's feedback is different, but still valuable. it's all data points, but everyone who comes has their own prism of reality they filter through, as well as the time it takes to fully appreciate what my system is doing. I find when a visitor has a second session that they 'get' what is going on much better.....and the feedback has more depth. but also, of course, there are visitors with extreme biases or even agendas, intentioned or not. it's all good and fun too, but one needs to not take themselves or one's system too seriously when we have listening guests.

 

[FrantzM]

some of us have regular visitors; listening mates. we understand each other's biases, tastes, and blind spots. I'm so fortunate to have a few local friends who have visited regularly dozens of times over the years.

when these regulars have a comment, I listen. sometimes it hurts for a bit. but it always ends up as a valuable data point I can return to for a bit of reality. where these buddies can really help is when I get a head of steam on some change or thing I'm trying to make happen. then their insight or suppressed ideas about my set-up become golden nuggets of opportunity. they might have sat there through a few sessions thinking about what they might want to tell me, but wait until my mind is open. then when I'm ready they bestow on me their gift of objectivity. priceless!!!

one time visitor's feedback is different, but still valuable. it's all data points, but everyone who comes has their own prism of reality they filter through, as well as the time it takes to fully appreciate what my system is doing. I find when a visitor has a second session that they 'get' what is going on much better.....and the feedback has more depth. but also, of course, there are visitors with extreme biases or even agendas, intentioned or not. it's all good and fun too, but one needs to not take themselves or one's system too seriously when we have listening guests.

Excellent Post.

 

[DaveyF]

Excellent Post.

+1

Although, I suspect that Mike may be in the minority in regards to his attitude with visiting a'phile friends..

I happen to be with him on this, if someone can bring a greater sound into my room, i'm all ears (pun).

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I don't go into this "black art" as deeply and with as much commitment and/or conviction as others, but I do feel it's a very important part of the setup and eventual result. Whenever I've moved into a new room I begin with a placement that tries to duplicate the basic positioning parameters of the prior room (spacing from back/side walls/straight firing or toe-in). Width of speakers will usually be different as room size is different. That's really all I do and I live with this for a few weeks (sometimes less, if I feel something is off right away). I then make some changes (not always the same ones) and repeat the process several times. After about 4-5 different placements I pretty much know which one I prefer and stick with it.

Once I've decided on the best (for me) placement I do continue with the balance controls (Bass/treble) of my Genesis G7.1f's to get the right mix and tone from the imported settings they were on in the previous room.

I don't do much more than that.

 

[microstrip]

(...) it's all good and fun too, but one needs to not take themselves or one's system too seriously when we have listening guests.

Although this is surely the most important aspect considering visitors, most of the time I also profit from the opportunity of using them as guinea pigs for my audio experiments!