Speaker positioning, a black art or ??

[DaveyF]

I have noticed that a lot of us tend to place speakers in the room with perhaps too much concern for the aesthetics or perhaps, the expected results from a given placement. On many occasions, I have visited rooms at shows and at other a'philes, wherein the dealer/manufacturer, or a'phile,is locked in to a specific "ideal" and demonstrated a particular hesitancy to either relocate the speaker positioning; or to have really given little thought to this endeavor at all.
How many times have you seen speakers that are either a) in front of a hard glaring surface...like glass or mirror, b) too close to the rear wall, c) not far enough apart...or too far apart, d) located in a room that is either way too small or way too large, e) surrounded by too much gear ( like the room a few years ago at Newport that was demoing the large Cabasses in the same plane as numerous amounts of other gear!) ( worse still, IME, the situation wherein main speakers are next to several other speakers...creating a perfect vertical blind effect!).
IME, a careful set up of the speaker positioning with a laser or accurate tape can and will result in a great result...so why are so many guys still just plunking the speakers down against the back wall...and then are unwilling to forego experimentation in absolute positioning...instead they seek better sound in the next tweek or worse...new piece of gear??
The cheapest and IMHO the easiest way to better sound, is to truly dial in the speaker positioning and the room that they will work best in..
Is speaker positioning a black art???

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have noticed that a lot of us tend to place speakers in the room with perhaps too much concern for the aesthetics or perhaps, the expected results from a given placement. On many occasions, I have visited rooms at shows and at other a'philes, wherein the dealer/manufacturer, or a'phile,is locked in to a specific "ideal" and demonstrated a particular hesitancy to either relocate the speaker positioning; or to have really given little thought to this endeavor at all.
How many times have you seen speakers that are either a) in front of a hard glaring surface...like glass or mirror, b) too close to the rear wall, c) not far enough apart...or too far apart, d) located in a room that is either way too small or way too large, e) surrounded by too much gear ( like the room a few years ago at Newport that was demoing the large Cabasses in the same plane as numerous amounts of other gear!) ( worse still, IME, the situation wherein main speakers are next to several other speakers...creating a perfect vertical blind effect!).
IME, a careful set up of the speaker positioning with a laser or accurate tape can and will result in a great result...so why are so many guys still just plunking the speakers down against the back wall...and then are unwilling to forego experimentation in absolute positioning...instead they seek better sound in the next tweek or worse...new piece of gear??
The cheapest and IMHO the easiest way to better sound, is to truly dial in the speaker positioning and the room that they will work best in..
Is speaker positioning a black art???

Davey I could not agree with you more. I've changed little in my system signal path over these past 2-3 years (digital sources and a few odds and ends). but I've been room tuning, first with treating surfaces, then solving some lower bass non linearity's, and finally with speaker placement and listening position.

I do think that you cannot really get too far with really good positioning until you (1) control surface reflections and (2) have a clear reference in your mind of how you want things to sound.

until (1) has progressed it's hard to know what is causing what. and naturally this is a bit of a ratchet effect where you solve some surface reflection issues, you adjust the positioning, and then find more problematic reflections, then readjust positioning, and so on. this takes time. in my case about 30 months. you just have to stay with it and accept peeling that onion as a path and not as a one time thing. nothing wrong with letting a dealer set up the speakers and leave them there forever. it's one way to do it. but you did basically delegate your happiness point to someone. hopefully they are good.

and if they are really good, it is because they have (2), a clear reference in their mind of where they are going. and this is really the issue I think. if you have heard your gear sound a certain way and you like it.....then that can be yours. it's that simple. however; it might take quite a bit of effort and tearing down visual comfort zones to get there. I'm lucky I have a dedicated room where I'm not forced to compromise treatments or positioning with life style issues, but many are constrained by that.

surprising many don't exactly know how they want things to sound. I know there have been times when I was not sure. even times when I did not realize I did not know how I wanted things to sound. nothing wrong with being reference-less (searching for a reference).......the only issue is that your reasons for buying stuff can get warped then. some live in this spot for awhile and enjoy it. the point is to be self aware you are there.

or you do know what you want, but then you hear something better and then what you want changes. that exact thing has happened twice for me in the last 2 years and those 2 events have taken me to an all time best spot as far as room set up. the methods of improvement of that 'best' set-up are dwarfed by the significance of those reference changing moments. it's like i could see again after being blind.

as far as my methods of positioning, I've already said enough for now. i'll circle back and add more later about that process. to me it starts with an idea of where you are trying to get to.

this subject is so real to me right now.

 

[Al M.]

I totally agree with you both, Davey and Mike.

Speaker and listening seat positioning, as well as room treatment, should take precedence over tweaks and, to a considerable extent, gear purchases.

I'm lucky I have a dedicated room where I'm not forced to compromise treatments or positioning with life style issues, but many are constrained by that.

I am lucky that way too.

 

[Al M.]

nothing wrong with letting a dealer set up the speakers and leave them there forever. it's one way to do it. but you did basically delegate your happiness point to someone. hopefully they are good.

That is crucial. I would vote for not delegating your happiness point to someone else.

surprising many don't exactly know how they want things to sound. I know there have been times when I was not sure. even times when I did not realize I did not know how I wanted things to sound. nothing wrong with being reference-less (searching for a reference).......the only issue is that your reasons for buying stuff can get warped then. some live in this spot for awhile and enjoy it. the point is to be self aware you are there.

It is also important to not just have a reference, but to know what your priorities are. There is nothing wrong with "wanting it all", but it seems some audiophiles do not (want to) realize how much you have to compromise in most real-world cases, and since they don't know their priorities, they are thrown off into wanting for their situation hard to obtain things anytime they hear another system that does some things better or just differently.

Since I had an audiophile speaker system (my first gear was headphone based) starting 25 years ago, I knew that liveliness, dynamics and drama of presentation, combined with a certain minimal amount of tonal/timbral believability, was my top priority. For others, priorities will be different.

I was willing to compromise in other areas such as deep bass and general bass impact, presentation of size and space, or timbral resolution. In the meantime I have come much farther in those areas than I ever dreamed of (and soundstage is now on a level that some envy when they hear my system), but I never lost sight of my highest priorities. Result: no frantic gear changes and an overall level of happiness with my system throughout the years that many others seem to have a harder time to obtain.

 

[Rodney Gold]

Rather worry about listening chair position than speaker position , it is 10x more effective to move the listening chair than speakers....especially moving out of a bass null or peak.
Your lattitude of freedom is mostly pretty much curtailed in terms of positioning anything unless you have a dedicated area where you can do what you want

Room correction/treatment/positioning etc are also an order of magnitude higher in respect of the effect they have on sonics vs tweaks which are normally pretty subtle .. always get that right first

 

[microstrip]

No one will deny on the importance of speaker and listener position, but IMHO it is also a subjective matter, and as such, a preference. Also some rooms, speakers and equipment are much more sensitive to placement than others.

We can find many methods of speaker placement, used by people of known competence. They will probably end with a different positioning.

Unfortunately many times people listen with their eyes, not with their hears. Some of the best reproduced sound I have listened was in rooms and environments that I would immediately consider as a poor if analyzed from point of view a), b), c), d) or e).

And yes, in great part it is a black art...

 

[microstrip]

(...) surprising many don't exactly know how they want things to sound. I know there have been times when I was not sure. even times when I did not realize I did not know how I wanted things to sound. nothing wrong with being reference-less (searching for a reference).......the only issue is that your reasons for buying stuff can get warped then. some live in this spot for awhile and enjoy it. the point is to be self aware you are there. (...)

Excellent point. High-end affairs become much more manageable after we know what we are looking for. It is why IMHO experience and knowledge are mandatory in setting a system. But as stereo sound listening is an evolutionary matter, we are always learning ...

 

[JackD201]

I don't think it is a dark art at all. I just think it requires a different thought process, particularly one that analyses the sound in 3 dimensions.

In a normal domestic setting with typical domestic speakers (boxes with low order XOs) the typical thing to do is to position the loudspeakers where bass is best or at least the least problematic. Distance between speakers, toe-in and in some cases rake angle are then left to fill in the gaps and contour frequency response above the transition frequency. The 3-D thing depends on the dispersion characteristics of the loudspeaker and how dependent or independent they are of boundary reinforcement to get the desired response at the prospective listening position. Typically this is where people who don't have dedicated spaces have the most problems as floor plans for domestic spaces are such that seating is usually not most conducive to focused sound. It doesn't help that standard tweeter heights are more in range of standard sofa or easy chair heights and not standard chair heights. Good luck bringing in that dining chair and putting it between your sofa and your coffee table LOL.

In any case, the bright side is that there are many choices of differing dispersion patterns out there with their attendant differing boundary reinforcement needs. Audiophile convention is that speakers need to be placed out in the room to get a wide and deep soundstage but that isn't entirely true. There are many cases where Pi iterations all give good to stellar results with regards to stages. It just depends on the design of the particular speaker. In wall can be great as many a studio engineer can demonstrate. So can anything in between.

So for those constrained to put their speakers against the front wall, my advice is really simple. Choose appropriately. It should be part of regular due diligence so as not to waste value.

 

[microstrip]

I don't think it is a dark art at all. I just think it requires a different thought process, particularly one that analyses the sound in 3 dimensions. (...)

A different thought process to bring magic in our systems - it is exactly why I find it like black art!

 

[Rodney Gold]

I have a 500sq ft dedicated room , and it took me a year to get the speaker/chair positioning right , and its still not perfect...thus my listening chair is mobile and I have about a meter fore and aft space as well as height and tilt etc.. and that allows me quite a bit of lattitude to fine tune sonics on the fly...DIRAC helps too

As to being a black art.well the issue is that no one has an absolute reference as to what the system "should" sound like , and thus a lot is subjective and using anyones ears and "black magic" but yours in positioning is merely reflecting some one elses taste.

Experimentsation is the key.. and all but the most dedicated audiophiles just ignore it and resort to box swapping to "fix" stuff that box swapping isnt capable of.

Not to say box swapping is invalid , its an enjoyable experience and part of the hobby

Mea culpa ..I am upgrading to Vivid G1 spirits from my G1's and upgrading my 500w dual mono Devialets to 1000's .. but that just cos I feel like treating myself after major heart issues ... the dread disease windfall payout for my 2 month old quad open heart bypass will more than cover it..spend it while I can appreciate it...or before I die (i'm 57 I have already had another attack 3 weeks ago and needed a stent..so am feeling a bit frail and fragile and live for the moment)

I'll be placing the new speakers in exactly the same position as my old ones..but will have an open mind as to moving them around a bit..
My speakers are well out in the room , about 3m from front wall and 1.5m from sides

 

[Robh3606]

I don't think it's a black art at all. I also know what I expect it to sound like. I have multiple systems in multiple rooms and for the most part the overall balance is the same in each room. Placement is obviously different in each room as none of them fall into the perfect rectangle. All of them have either openings or sloped ceilings, closets and what have you. My original room was my unfinished basement that has since been finished but not before I spent a month or so trying as many different placement schemes as I could to find the best speaker placement and listening chair combo. That has not changed for well over 20 years now. As new speakers have passed through there has been some tweaking of toe-in and position but from a room layout stand point it has not changed.

Rob

 

[DaveyF]

I have a 500sq ft dedicated room , and it took me a year to get the speaker/chair positioning right , and its still not perfect...thus my listening chair is mobile and I have about a meter fore and aft space as well as height and tilt etc.. and that allows me quite a bit of lattitude to fine tune sonics on the fly...DIRAC helps too

As to being a black art.well the issue is that no one has an absolute reference as to what the system "should" sound like , and thus a lot is subjective and using anyones ears and "black magic" but yours in positioning is merely reflecting some one elses taste.

Experimentsation is the key.. and all but the most dedicated audiophiles just ignore it and resort to box swapping to "fix" stuff that box swapping isnt capable of.

Not to say box swapping is invalid , its an enjoyable experience and part of the hobby

Mea culpa ..I am upgrading to Vivid G1 spirits from my G1's and upgrading my 500w dual mono Devialets to 1000's .. but that just cos I feel like treating myself after major heart issues ... the dread disease windfall payout for my 2 month old quad open heart bypass will more than cover it..spend it while I can appreciate it...or before I die (i'm 57 I have already had another attack 3 weeks ago and needed a stent..so am feeling a bit frail and fragile and live for the moment)

I'll be placing the new speakers in exactly the same position as my old ones..but will have an open mind as to moving them around a bit..
My speakers are well out in the room , about 3m from front wall and 1.5m from sides

Rodney, very sorry to hear about your ongoing health issues.

I think you will get a BIG smile on your face when you get your new G1 Spirits. Your G1's are a killer speaker already, and from what I have heard the new Spirits are considerably better!

As to speaker positioning, I think the chair movement and the possible addition of room correction and treatment is something that I believe you do once the speakers are in a correct position ( basically)...in other words as fine tuning. I agree 100% with Mike L's comments on this issue.
Albeit, I can see how some people will plop the speakers down and be perfectly happy with the result....I guess it depends on how serious one is about getting the SQ as close to optimized as possible. Personally, that is a very BIG thing for me. OTOH, I suspect that there are a lot of a'philes who would prefer to swap gear or add tweeks instead of moving their speakers around and constantly experimenting to get the best results. IME, these guys leave a lot of sound on the table.

 

[Al M.]

Rodney, very sorry to hear about your ongoing health issues.

Me too.

OTOH, I suspect that there are a lot of a'philes who would prefer to swap gear or add tweeks instead of moving their speakers around and constantly experimenting to get the best results. IME, these guys leave a lot of sound on the table.

How true.

 

[Folsom]

One thing that bothers me the most is the choice between on-axis and off-axis.

But I believe I've discovered the source of why it's wrong and right. See certain albums it sounds all wrong, but most sound good. Why? Well I'm willing to put my money on the difference of axis choice deployed by the studios that mixed and mastered the album. If they had on-axis speakers the highs will probably be friendly when on-axis, and if they had off-axis then you may expect the highs to be dominating too much. It's a matter of taste, but it will be defined in part by the factor that taste will vary based on axis.

I've heard lots of systems sound good with speakers on-axis and off-axis, but I don't image cuts chosen by whomever set it up would tend to exemplify the poorer side of the axis.

Yes everything else is important, but most of us are somewhat familiar with where the speaker goes in the room, that treating the room is a factor, etc. It's the axis that has no true answer, so it's a bother to me you could say.

 

[Robh3606]

One thing that bothers me the most is the choice between on-axis and off-axis.

It shouldn't matter all that much unless you are doing extremes. By design all speakers have a preferred/ recommended listen window that you should be in and use the toe-in to adjust the ratio of direct to reflected sound depending on the polar pattern and how directional they are up top. That's all about user preference to get the perceived "correct" balance.

Rob

 

[Folsom]

That's the thing, my preference is different album to album.

 

[FrantzM]

Rodney, very sorry to hear about your ongoing health issues.

I think you will get a BIG smile on your face when you get your new G1 Spirits. Your G1's are a killer speaker already, and from what I have heard the new Spirits are considerably better!

<snip> OTOH, I suspect that there are a lot of a'philes who would prefer to swap gear or add tweeks instead of moving their speakers around and constantly experimenting to get the best results. IME, these guys leave a lot of sound on the table.

Agreeing 100%

And Rodney get well soon!! You will get better.

 

[NorthStar]

I have noticed that a lot of us tend to place speakers in the room with perhaps too much concern for the aesthetics or perhaps, the expected results from a given placement. On many occasions, I have visited rooms at shows and at other a'philes, wherein the dealer/manufacturer, or a'phile,is locked in to a specific "ideal" and demonstrated a particular hesitancy to either relocate the speaker positioning; or to have really given little thought to this endeavor at all.
How many times have you seen speakers that are either a) in front of a hard glaring surface...like glass or mirror, b) too close to the rear wall, c) not far enough apart...or too far apart, d) located in a room that is either way too small or way too large, e) surrounded by too much gear ( like the room a few years ago at Newport that was demoing the large Cabasses in the same plane as numerous amounts of other gear!) ( worse still, IME, the situation wherein main speakers are next to several other speakers...creating a perfect vertical blind effect!).
IME, a careful set up of the speaker positioning with a laser or accurate tape can and will result in a great result...so why are so many guys still just plunking the speakers down against the back wall...and then are unwilling to forego experimentation in absolute positioning...instead they seek better sound in the next tweek or worse...new piece of gear??
The cheapest and IMHO the easiest way to better sound, is to truly dial in the speaker positioning and the room that they will work best in..
Is speaker positioning a black art???

Davey, most speakers sound their best away from any surface...we all know that.
Only few speakers are designed to be close to the front wall, or even in corners...we know some of them too...from yesteryears...some Klipsch models.

Now, in general @ audio shows speakers are positioned to sound their best...away from the front and side walls.
@ home, in au'files rooms...the same.
From lesser au'files rooms...then it varies according to decor's constraints and wife's final decision. ...Freedom is not a given. :b

Each speaker, each room has some ideals. ...Some positioning that are better. We have no clue unless experience taught us what should be logically the approximate best locations. Then with measurements and listening sessions each au'file serious listener pick his own spots for the sound he/she likes...own accommodation.

Say that in your own room @ home you are fully satisfied with your sound from your own speaker positioning of your own choosing.
Then one day your young daughter with an excellent set of ears and great taste for classical chamber and acoustic jazz music starts to experiment with your speaker positioning and settles for few inches difference (wider) from your own, plus she puts the sweet chair further by five inches. That's the position her ears told her about sound happiness on a higher emotional vibrato (impact), her own. Then your turn to sit down in her chair and listen. @ first you feel disoriented because it breaks your common familiarity with your own sound.
But after a week you get the new hang of it and realized the inferior positioning of your own past. Your daughter you can only thank her and love her even more; she opened a door that you did not see was closed, or even existed.

You think stuff like that is possible?
By the way, she did not use any laser or any tape measuring, only her feminine instinct and accurate geometry by just eyeing it all.
Does it fit with your beliefs and are you willing to accept wisdom beyond your own conventions?
Furthermore; you take new measurements of her speaker's positioning in your room and they happen to measure worst than before (by not that much but still some), and to your ears now (and hers too) it sounds better than what the new measurements imply.

Is the question; are we directed by slaved measurements more than by our own preferable judgement of sound? has some to do with our ultimate decisions regarding speaker positioning in each individual room (treated or untreated...depending), and where we put our chair?
This, strictly stereo hi-fi business (only two speakers), and with, or without room equalization from various methods.
Brief, we have to determine the level of purity by each audiophile's beliefs. Some with an analog emphasis will never dare to add digital or even analog room EQ...it is simply a redundant and extraneous audio signal path that is nefarious to the overall pure audio and short signal.
Others will find the benefits of optimizing the low frequencies by adding a pair of subwoofers in ideal locations, and by using a proven quality digital room EQ for that bass...say anything below 200Hz or so.

Each speaker and room are different; there are basics but there are also and always different variables. Plus different ultimate main listener...you. ...Us.

The art of experimenting with positioning from each listener, family members, friends, rooms, sets of ears. We share what we know and do and that is all we can.
Some think they know it all and they probably do too. We listen to them as our guides. Your daughter is your guide; she simply don't pretend to know it all.

In audio magic happens, in music recordings the same. Black art? No, just magic accidents.
This is only one view to look @ it; there are many more views...even from my own.

The science of acoustics from physics and mathematics is real, so are the differences in all our set of ears and sound preferences for the music genres we like the most.
We follow the audio gurus first, then we fine tune our ears if necessary.

Your question is simple, and the answer is complex. It all depends.

IMHO

 

[dan31]

http://www.psaudio.com/article/location-location-location/

Jim Smith's thoughts on listening position. The thought is to anchor this position in the room and work from there.

 

[mauidan]

http://www.psaudio.com/article/location-location-location/

Jim Smith's thoughts on listening position. The thought is to anchor this position in the room and work from there.

I have Mr.Smith's DVD, and it's an excellent source of listening room set up information.