Dull speakers or inadequate amplification?

[Raider]

I recently purchased a pair of pre-owned Sonus Faber Sonetto III, currently being paired with an Arcam SA20 integrated amp. Prior to the Sonettos the Arcam was driving B&W CM5s which are an exemplary pairing. So I've had the Sonus Faber's for about a week and have run them around the track with a variety of my favorite music, primarily blues and jazz and I'm underwhelmed so far. I've listened to them with an SVS SB-2000 sub switched on and off. The sub is set at 50Hz, volume is at 25%.

I've played with positioning and toe-in and positioned GIK bass traps in various areas of the 14' x 14' room. The Arcam is rated at 150w into 4 ohms. The SF are 3 way 4 ohm speakers rated at 89dB and 50 - 250w so my amp lands square in the middle. I'm not sure if I should be asking my dealer to test out different amps at home or the speakers are just not my cup of tea. What I like about my CM5s are their punchy 50Hz output, smooth midrange and crystal clear treble with only the occasional offensive sibilance.

What I don't like with the SF are what sound to my ears like veiled mid to upper range. Most of what I play (hi-res streaming) just sounds dull and lifeless. Maybe my ears haven't adapted to the very different speaker sound signatures but I don't think so. Do I have an inadequate amp problem or a speaker problem? Thanks in advance for your expertise.

 

[gleeds]

Raider, congratulations on your new speakers! It could be several things.

What is your source equipment and cabling. This will the members to opine in a more concise manner.

 

[Raider]

Raider, congratulations on your new speakers! It could be several things.

What is your source equipment and cabling. This will the members to opine in a more concise manner.

I exclusively listen to Tidal on my Bluesound Node 2i. I must admit my cables and speaker wires are generic. Monoprice cables I think.

 

[Gregm]

Re congrats, I liked the Sonetto last time I listened to them play. As bleeds notes above, more details will help us focus better. That said, and assuming that your B&Ws were in the same room, I would speculate that the Arcam is the weakest link here. Dull sound means that either your tweeters are shot (unlikely) or that the Arcam does a poor job driving the SFs.

When I last listened to your speakers they did not lack in the mid-high department!

 

[ecwl]

I think Sonus Faber Sonetto III just has a more mellow sound compared to the old B&W CM5. Did you not find the SF more mellow when you auditioned them at the dealer? What did the dealer used to drive the system (amp, preamp and source?)

 

[gleeds]

I exclusively listen to Tidal on my Bluesound Node 2i. I must admit my cables and speaker wires are generic. Monoprice cables I think.

Raider, an easy fix then if you love the bass performance and tonal balance of the SF and simply want more transparency and life then this is not a hard fix that can be taken one step at a time. I'll DM you some ideas.

 

[Raider]

I think Sonus Faber Sonetto III just has a more mellow sound compared to the old B&W CM5. Did you not find the SF more mellow when you auditioned them at the dealer? What did the dealer used to drive the system (amp, preamp and source?)

It was an $10,000 McIntosh setup. They were mellow but it's incredibly difficult to imagine translating what you hear in a showroom setting to what they will actually sound like in your own room. Just too many variables.

 

[ecwl]

It was an $10,000 McIntosh setup. They were mellow but it's incredibly difficult to imagine translating what you hear in a showroom setting to what they will actually sound like in your own room. Just too many variables.

Okay. Did you like the Mcintosh sound? Or were you hoping once you get the speakers home and pair them with Arcam, they will sound more alive?
If it’s the latter, it might just be a room acoustic issue that you can fix. If it’s the former, I think you just got the wrong pair of speaker for your sonic preference.

 

[ecwl]

I recently purchased a pair of pre-owned Sonus Faber Sonetto III, currently being paired with an Arcam SA20 integrated amp. Prior to the Sonettos the Arcam was driving B&W CM5s which are exemplary match. So I've had the Sonus Faber's for about a week and have run them around the track with a variety of my favorite music, primarily blues and jazz and I'm underwhelmed so far. I've listened to them with an SVS SB-2000 sub switched on and off. The sub is set at 50Hz, volume is at 25%.

I just remembered that the SA20 has multiple digital filters for you to choose from.
The default Apodizing filter can sometimes sound softer to people. So if you switch the digital filter to Linear Phase Fast Roll-Off, you may be able to bring some more life and excitement back to the Sonus Farber. Audibility of filters is very listener dependent but it's possible your B&W CM5 just sounds better with the Apodizing filter while the SF might sound better with the Linear Phase Fast Roll-Off filter.
And I presume you're using Coaxial feed from Node2i to SA20 as sometimes the sound is softer using Toslink.

 

[Raider]

I tried the filters with the CM5s and couldn't detect any differences but I'll give that a spin with the SF. I was using coaxial and toslink to switch between for testing at the old house/other speakers but I haven't hooked up the coax with these yet. I'll do that. Thanks.

 

[morricab]

I recently purchased a pair of pre-owned Sonus Faber Sonetto III, currently being paired with an Arcam SA20 integrated amp. Prior to the Sonettos the Arcam was driving B&W CM5s which are an exemplary pairing. So I've had the Sonus Faber's for about a week and have run them around the track with a variety of my favorite music, primarily blues and jazz and I'm underwhelmed so far. I've listened to them with an SVS SB-2000 sub switched on and off. The sub is set at 50Hz, volume is at 25%.

I've played with positioning and toe-in and positioned GIK bass traps in various areas of the 14' x 14' room. The Arcam is rated at 150w into 4 ohms. The SF are 3 way 4 ohm speakers rated at 89dB and 50 - 250w so my amp lands square in the middle. I'm not sure if I should be asking my dealer to test out different amps at home or the speakers are just not my cup of tea. What I like about my CM5s are their punchy 50Hz output, smooth midrange and crystal clear treble with only the occasional offensive sibilance.

What I don't like with the SF are what sound to my ears like veiled mid to upper range. Most of what I play (hi-res streaming) just sounds dull and lifeless. Maybe my ears haven't adapted to the very different speaker sound signatures but I don't think so. Do I have an inadequate amp problem or a speaker problem? Thanks in advance for your expertise. View attachment 116225

ARe the speakers brand new? If yes, then they may need a break-in time to open up. Did you audition at a dealer before buying or did you buy without first listening? If yes, the ones in the shop may well have been broken in and sounding different. If yes, what did you hear at the shop and what did you like? What was the amp you used for audition?

 

[Raider]

Okay. Did you like the Mcintosh sound? Or were you hoping once you get the speakers home and pair them with Arcam, they will sound more alive?
If it’s the latter, it might just be a room acoustic issue that you can fix. If it’s the former, I think you just got the wrong pair of speaker for your sonic preference.

For sure they shined with the Mac. The Arcam has some warm characteristics which may have balanced out the lively B&Ws. It's possible the SF need an amp that will help them balance the other way.

 

[morricab]

It was an $10,000 McIntosh setup. They were mellow but it's incredibly difficult to imagine translating what you hear in a showroom setting to what they will actually sound like in your own room. Just too many variables.

You should have been able to tell if there was something you might not like in the sound...especially regarding transparency (you mentioned the veil). If that was a question mark then I am surprised you bought them.

 

[Raider]

You should have been able to tell if there was something you might not like in the sound...especially regarding transparency (you mentioned the veil). If that was a question mark then I am surprised you bought them.

Well I think premium amplification brought out the best in them. When I listened I fell in love with the velvety liquid sound. It isn't translating in my room with my amp.

 

[XV-1]

ARe the speakers brand new? If yes, then they may need a break-in time to open up. Did you audition at a dealer before buying or did you buy without first listening? If yes, the ones in the shop may well have been broken in and sounding different. If yes, what did you hear at the shop and what did you like? What was the amp you used for audition?

recently purchased a pair of pre-owned Sonus Faber Sonetto III,

 

[Raider]

I just remembered that the SA20 has multiple digital filters for you to choose from.
The default Apodizing filter can sometimes sound softer to people. So if you switch the digital filter to Linear Phase Fast Roll-Off, you may be able to bring some more life and excitement back to the Sonus Farber. Audibility of filters is very listener dependent but it's possible your B&W CM5 just sounds better with the Apodizing filter while the SF might sound better with the Linear Phase Fast Roll-Off filter.
And I presume you're using Coaxial feed from Node2i to SA20 as sometimes the sound is softer using Toslink.

Dude, I found the coax cable and connected it and changed the filter. That brought some life and sparkle to the mid-high range. In essence I'm using the amp DAC which is superior to the Bluesound Dac. I knew this. I've had so much going on lately I can't think straight. Thanks for the kick in the butt! Now to start looking at upgrading cables. I don't have an unlimited income. Any suggestions on affordable (relative term I know) speaker wire and cables?

 

[Audiohertz2]

I recently purchased a pair of pre-owned Sonus Faber Sonetto III, currently being paired with an Arcam SA20 integrated amp. Prior to the Sonettos the Arcam was driving B&W CM5s which are an exemplary pairing. So I've had the Sonus Faber's for about a week and have run them around the track with a variety of my favorite music, primarily blues and jazz and I'm underwhelmed so far. I've listened to them with an SVS SB-2000 sub switched on and off. The sub is set at 50Hz, volume is at 25%.

I've played with positioning and toe-in and positioned GIK bass traps in various areas of the 14' x 14' room. The Arcam is rated at 150w into 4 ohms. The SF are 3 way 4 ohm speakers rated at 89dB and 50 - 250w so my amp lands square in the middle. I'm not sure if I should be asking my dealer to test out different amps at home or the speakers are just not my cup of tea. What I like about my CM5s are their punchy 50Hz output, smooth midrange and crystal clear treble with only the occasional offensive sibilance.

What I don't like with the SF are what sound to my ears like veiled mid to upper range. Most of what I play (hi-res streaming) just sounds dull and lifeless. Maybe my ears haven't adapted to the very different speaker sound signatures but I don't think so. Do I have an inadequate amp problem or a speaker problem? Thanks in advance for your expertise. View attachment 116225

Does it sound like this at all volume levels ? after lowering does the balance change..!

 

[ecwl]

Dude, I found the coax cable and connected it and changed the filter. That brought some life and sparkle to the mid-high range. In essence I'm using the amp DAC which is superior to the Bluesound Dac. I knew this. I've had so much going on lately I can't think straight. Thanks for the kick in the butt! Now to start looking at upgrading cables. I don't have an unlimited income. Any suggestions on affordable (relative term I know) speaker wire and cables?

I personally think that while you can get more details and transparency and maybe dynamics from different speaker wires and cables, I doubt it’s the best bang for the buck. That said, I don’t know much about monoprice cables although the monoprice ones I own are super solid.

To get even more midrange-treble detail, you want to toe in your speakers more so the tweeter is pointing at you but when you do that, you’ll also shrink the left right soundstage so you may want to pull your speakers further apart to compensate. Looking at your photo, it looks like there is a limit to how far you can get the right speaker because of the wall/window so it’ll end up being a compromise.

you mentioned you have GIK bass traps but didn’t say which ones. To me, there is the old school way of doing things which is what you said you’ve been doing, randomly place the traps and see what sounds good and there is the modern way of going by measurements.

i think it’ll be too big an investment for you to buy a calibrated microphone and run RoomEQ Wizard to measure your listening position and optimize it and then to measure where the bass traps would be optimally placed.

but a cheaper way to do things if you already own an iPhone or an iPad is that AudioTools the app already has a calibrated setting for your Apple device so for $30? You can start measuring your system. You’ll have to find a decent pink noise track off Tidal. I use Audio Line Up Test Tones except their pink noise has a 125Hz louder noise mixed in. You can use the software to see which listening position allows for the smoothest bass and move your listening seat there. You can then see where the remaining bass peak frequencies are and then just move the phone to where you want to place the bass trap. If the same bass peak is not there at where you want to put the trap, then the trap will do nothing for that frequency. There is still a learning curve but for a $30 app, if you can’t figure out, it’s not a huge waste of money

 

[JackD201]

Smooth Arcam + Lively B&W = Just Right

Smooth Arcam + Smooth Sonus = Too Smooth

Power is not the issue if the amp is running to spec, that's for sure. I think first is to maybe to transfer more information down the chain starting with the interconnects. You can have a set or two made at a music shop just ask for their better mic cables. If you find some improvement there, you can go try Speaker cables too. Just borrow if you can as gains here should be minimal for your particular case. If that still isn't enough you might want to look for either the amp or the speakers to be replaced with a one with a more complementary signature.

Then again, overtime the presentation might be something you can adjust to. I'm just trying to think of the most foundational, easy, and least risky things to try.

Lastly please check if you've pressed your speakers into the carpet so all your spikes make contact with the slab beneath. Good luck!

 

[Raider]

Smooth Arcam + Lively B&W = Just Right

Smooth Arcam + Smooth Sonus = Too Smooth

Power is not the issue if the amp is running to spec, that's for sure. I think first is to maybe to transfer more information down the chain starting with the interconnects. You can have a set or two made at a music shop just ask for their better mic cables. If you find some improvement there, you can go try Speaker cables too. Just borrow if you can as gains here should be minimal for your particular case. If that still isn't enough you might want to look for either the amp or the speakers to be replaced with a one with a more complementary signature.

Then again, overtime the presentation might be something you can adjust to. I'm just trying to think of the most foundational, easy, and least risky things to try.

Lastly please check if you've pressed your speakers into the carpet so all your spikes make contact with the slab beneath. Good luck!

Thanks bro. Connecting to the amp with a coax cable and switching the amp filter really opened things up. I'm using the amp DAC instead of the Bluesound DAC. Substantial improvement that I overlooked.