New Album & The Beginning of Basketball Season

[beaur]

Using that criteria Russell over Chamberlain and it's not close!!

Agreed. Gotta take Duncan over Malone as he's won championships.

Great game last night btw, Bulls taking out GSW for first loss in 20 at home.

 

[jadis]

Using that criteria Russell over Chamberlain and it's not close!!

That had crossed my mind, being an ardent fan and all of the Celtics. Bill is the 'winningest' NBA player ever in terms of rings, but position-wise, I'd couldn't argue that Wilt the most dominant player ever to play the centerposition. And some would argue that he's the 'best' basketball player ever, besting Michael Jordan - and that, I could agree too. And boy, I've only seen highlights of Wilt's awesome career as he played ahead of my time. As for Tim and Karl, the gap for greatness in the PF position is somewhat smaller, hence the consideration of the rings as a deciding factor, imo.

 

[beaur]

Given the sport I always say arguing over stats is meaningless without the team taken into consideration. Why I vote for Russell over Wilt is that Russell made his team better,
while Wilt made himself better.

That had crossed my mind, being an ardent fan and all of the Celtics. Bill is the 'winningest' NBA player ever in terms of rings, but position-wise, I'd couldn't argue that Wilt the most dominant player ever to play the centerposition. And some would argue that he's the 'best' basketball player ever, besting Michael Jordan - and that, I could agree too. And boy, I've only seen highlights of Wilt's awesome career as he played ahead of my time. As for Tim and Karl, the gap for greatness in the PF position is somewhat smaller, hence the consideration of the rings as a deciding factor, imo.

 

[JackD201]

I can't think of any other player the league changed rules because of. That I think speaks volumes about Wilt.

 

[beaur]

OK if it's rules based then I would take Mikan as the rules he changed (He caused the changes first) were more impactful to the entire game ie goal tending and widening the lane. While it was in the NCAA the Alcindor rule ie No Dunking was also more impactful. BTW there are plenty of players that caused a rule change in the NBA.

I can't think of any other player the league changed rules because of. That I think speaks volumes about Wilt.

 

[JackD201]

Cool A list would be greatly appreciated.

 

[beaur]

Cool A list would be greatly appreciated.

Reddit is your friend

http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/related/1aexwv/players_that_caused_nba_rule_changes/

Some are technical rules like dress code etc but a bunch are on-courters.

Interesting that I generally don't watch BB much any more as the type of game I enjoy isn't around or only played by one team (Spurs). WOuld gladly return to the days of more physical play and a team oriented game than the look at me style that's played in both the NCAA and NBA now.

 

[jadis]

Reddit is your friend

http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/related/1aexwv/players_that_caused_nba_rule_changes/

Some are technical rules like dress code etc but a bunch are on-courters.

Cool list! That got me looking at some youtube of Mikan. When I was a kid, I would hang out in my uncle's room and he had on his shelf a book about George Mikan. I never knew who he was then as he had retired a decade ago (mid 50s) and for sure I never saw him play nor his highlights then. Very mobile big and certainly deserving to be in the greatest 50 of the NBA. And I thought Lew invented the skyhook. Well, Lew just shot it higher maybe.

 

[JackD201]

Reddit is your friend

http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/related/1aexwv/players_that_caused_nba_rule_changes/

Some are technical rules like dress code etc but a bunch are on-courters.

Interesting that I generally don't watch BB much any more as the type of game I enjoy isn't around or only played by one team (Spurs). WOuld gladly return to the days of more physical play and a team oriented game than the look at me style that's played in both the NCAA and NBA now.

Thanks for the link B I think you will definitely enjoy the crisp play of the Warriors and the Hawks this year. You'll also probably like Portland and Dallas (now with Rondo) too. I started following Bball in a more than casual way only last year. I was turned off through the black top 1 on 1 style of the late 90's and the extreme franchise player culture that followed. I bemoaned the death of the jump shot. Well, it's back with a vengeance and the space all these shooters are creating all with crazy handles and vision sure are making the game fun to watch. Boy, the mobility of the bigs too! In turn a necessity given the sudden abundance of long and fast wings.

Strangely enough, my "team" WAS the Pacers, a throwback if there ever was one. I don't know who I'm really rooting for this year but I do know I'm enjoying it at a level close to or at par with the Dream Team 1 era.

 

[jadis]

Somehow, deep inside, I personally still prefer the old teams and older style of play of the 70s era. There's something nostalgic about those times. The wavy swish of the net, slower play, lesser passes and individual players uniquely flashing their style of play, from Walt Frazier's behind the back dribble, Dick Barnett's left leg bending down in his foul shots, Lew's skyhook, Wes Unseld's bull strong rebounding and quarterback-like outlet passes, to Gail Goodrich's, Jerry West and Havlicek's smooth shooting, not to mention the the deadly long range shooting of Pistol Pete, that was total entertainment for me to watch during those times. That era was meaningful because that was the time I started to play and become a rabid (though not commercially successful) player. I never lost an era following the NBA, even those years of low popularity, Sonics vs Bullets, I still took time out to watch the Finals. Having grown up with these types, I still look for these kinds of games where players will just shoot when they feel like they will net 2 points, rather than passing till 4 players touch the ball so that someone will get the 'best' shot available. Playing the game in my time, we looked for the best player who can shoot anywhere anytime, so watching how the game evolved into a spread out passing, screening game till the shot clock runs down takes some adjusting. The days of Magic finding Kareem or Worthy inside for 2 with just 1 pass is behind us. Now is A passes to B till it hits E for 2 points, and the announcers proclaim a fantastic play. That's not bad, it's just different as players are more spread out aiming for the 3s. Somehow, I lose my objectivity when the Celtics are in contention, I don't get to see how the game is played and all I care is that the Celtics team wins. Btw, I will never argue against any Celtics great not being listed here and there, but I give a silent nod to Wilt in a position ranking since he and Bill were such good good friends anyway, they have great respect for one another. The rest is media hype.

 

[rblnr]

Using that criteria Russell over Chamberlain and it's not close!!

Good point, though I think Duncan is a better player than Malone.

Heard Isiah Thomas talking the other day about current rules greatly curtailing the midrange game that was where the scoring of past eras was focused. The post up game has suffered too.

On physicality, I remember a young female reporter asking Al Attles if players in his era couldn't dunk. He laughed and said something like 'honey, we didn't because we knew the next time we went up there'd be a real hard landing'.

Was very young at the time but still remember the Bulls bruising backcourt of Jerry Sloan and Norm Van Lier. Getting past them, if you could, led you to what was called 'bloody nose alley' with Tom Boerwinkle and few others in the middle.

 

[beaur]

Definitely on the same page. I never really like having to compare players over different eras. Duncan is a great player but put him on the same floor with Unseld and Moses Malone banging on him with the rules of their time and his game would take a hit. I even make the argument that Jordan playing in a more physical time would have had some issues. No easy drive and dunks with Unseld in the paint.

My real problem getting motivated to watch the NBA now is that is that I live in a town with 2 teams but unfortunately they are the Knicks and the Nets. I can walk to the Barclay Center but I have only been to see 2 games!

Somehow, deep inside, I personally still prefer the old teams and older style of play of the 70s era. There's something nostalgic about those times. The wavy swish of the net, slower play, lesser passes and individual players uniquely flashing their style of play, from Walt Frazier's behind the back dribble, Dick Barnett's left leg bending down in his foul shots, Lew's skyhook, Wes Unseld's bull strong rebounding and quarterback-like outlet passes, to Gail Goodrich's, Jerry West and Havlicek's smooth shooting, not to mention the the deadly long range shooting of Pistol Pete, that was total entertainment for me to watch during those times. That era was meaningful because that was the time I started to play and become a rabid (though not commercially successful) player. I never lost an era following the NBA, even those years of low popularity, Sonics vs Bullets, I still took time out to watch the Finals. Having grown up with these types, I still look for these kinds of games where players will just shoot when they feel like they will net 2 points, rather than passing till 4 players touch the ball so that someone will get the 'best' shot available. Playing the game in my time, we looked for the best player who can shoot anywhere anytime, so watching how the game evolved into a spread out passing, screening game till the shot clock runs down takes some adjusting. The days of Magic finding Kareem or Worthy inside for 2 with just 1 pass is behind us. Now is A passes to B till it hits E for 2 points, and the announcers proclaim a fantastic play. That's not bad, it's just different as players are more spread out aiming for the 3s. Somehow, I lose my objectivity when the Celtics are in contention, I don't get to see how the game is played and all I care is that the Celtics team wins. Btw, I will never argue against any Celtics great not being listed here and there, but I give a silent nod to Wilt in a position ranking since he and Bill were such good good friends anyway, they have great respect for one another. The rest is media hype.

 

[FrantzM]

I am not sure we would like to see the "Physical" games of yesteryear with the new breed of athletes. The beautiful game of Basketball would be more violent than American Football. I strongly believe that new discoveries in Sports Science have allowed bigger, stronger and faster athletes. You put these within the old rules and it could be a bloodbath.

I still watch the game and try to have an open mind on its evolution. Progress is not linear. For now the game doesn't not favor the low post very much ... The operative term in for now .. It could change, it will change ..

All this having been said
I think that the greatest player to ever grace a basket ball court remains Wilt "the Stilt" Chamberlain. His stats are nonpareil. It is easy to say that he was for himself but one doesn't get to those outwordly stats by not being supremely talented and confident .. He was both. He was the best ever.

 

[JackD201]

The Philippine Basketball Association is a commercial league (Teams are owned and branded by corporations). It is terribly rough and tumble, very low scoring as a result. Pretty boring.

 

[beaur]

Agreed that the athletes are bigger and more versed in training and developing their skills as it's now a full time job. My benchmark for athletic development has been the 100M dash. Pure athletic achievement. The difference between now and then is only about 10%. On a track that translates into a whitewash. In a team sport with rules limiting you it's not as great.

While I disagree with you on Wilt I cannot argue as I recognize the differences are small. When asked this I usually to back to the playground and ask, "who would you pick first". My answer has always been Oscar Robertson.

How about this for a starting 5;

C Wilt
PF Russell
SF Duncan
PG Magic
SG Jordan

These type of discussions get particularly interesting when you switch to baseball. Boils down to who you like most of the time not who was actually "better".

I am not sure we would like to see the "Physical" games of yesteryear with the new breed of athletes. The beautiful game of Basketball would be more violent than American Football. I strongly believe that new discoveries in Sports Science have allowed bigger, stronger and faster athletes. You put these within the old rules and it could be a bloodbath.

I still watch the game and try to have an open mind on its evolution. Progress is not linear. For now the game doesn't not favor the low post very much ... The operative term in for now .. It could change, it will change ..

All this having been said
I think that the greatest player to ever grace a basket ball court remains Wilt "the Stilt" Chamberlain. His stats are nonpareil. It is easy to say that he was for himself but one doesn't get to those outwordly stats by not being supremely talented and confident .. He was both. He was the best ever.

 

[JackD201]

I could easily live with Russel over Wilt even if Wilt's stats were better and Bill had a bunch of fellow HoF'ers around him all the time but I don't think I could leave Bird out.

Who would be closest to Bird at 3 in history? Dr.J maybe? Not close IMO and I was a Lakers fan growing up.

 

[FrantzM]

I love this kind of discussion .. No doubt ... The Russel vs Chamberlain is interesting but The case for the incredible talent of Wilt is more than compelling ... The Stilt was in a league of his own .. Leading the league in Rebounds AND Assists AND points per game !!! No one has ever even come close ..... OTOH No way I would leave Bird ( I hated the guy, I am a Lakers Fan after all) and Duncan out.

 

[Steve Williams]

I can't ever see Wilt's single game scoring record ever being broken (or even his other record ) even though Kobe came close with his big game

Did I see the Lakers beat the Bulls last night in 2x OT. Lakers are on a one game winning streak

 

[FrantzM]

I can't ever see Wilt's single game scoring record ever being broken (or even his other record ) even though Kobe came close with his big game

Did I see the Lakers beat the Bulls last night in 2x OT. Lakers are on a one game winning streak

 

[jadis]

There are a few qualifying barometers in this 'best' discussion. Could be based on scoring titles, championship rings, or positions. Fantasy basketball comes to mind, ala those NBA 2K15 PS4 games. If only there was a 1 on 1 tournament based on position, ie centers vs centers, PF vs PFs, etc., it would have been fun. I know there was a 1 on 1 tourney before but the participants were boring, at best. And I think imagining a face off between Duncan and Malone, it would be close. May need a best of 3 to determine...

To me, one barometer I cherish about great players would be their impact on their rookie years. And nothing impressed me more than Magic's rookie year championship in '79-'80 and how he carried the team thru Game 6, playing center (Kareem was out for the game), on the road at Philly, and scoring 42 points in routing the Sixers and bagging the title for LA. Boy was I happy Philly got crushed - that ought to teach them for beating the Celtics in the Conference Finals. Next comes Bird, who turned the around the Celtics in his rookie year (win-loss record) and led the C's in demolishing Moses Malone and the Rockets in his sophomore year. The term franchise player comes to mind, and they are impact franchise players. And yeah, I wouldn't leave Bird out of the SF position either.