Idlers vs Direct Drive vs Belt Drive

[ddk]

David, have you ever heard the sound of the idler itself? I ask, as this has been the downside of this type of drive system for many. Additionally, the ability of the idler to isolate the sound of the motor is usually mentioned as a potential downfall.

You can hear something close up with the Garrards specially if idler wheel is old and the bearings are clogged, you can fix a lot of that with proper maintenance. Some improperly designed plinths trap the motor sound, none of this is an issue in a decent setup when the music is playing.
david

 

[BruceD]

An aspect of the better idlers that hasn't been discussed is "Money" and the value they offer on top of wonderful sound. IMO a properly set up 301/401 (I have no experience with Lenco!) in an uncolored playback system can decimate at least 85% of all tts out there including mega priced ones and the best ones are sonically unbeatable, even bigger bargains when compared to the typical pricing of so called super tables.

david

+1 My Shindo 301 has beaten out all I have tried against it--while my belt TT is sonically as pristine with its scale --the Idler has the weight to accompany that scale

YVMV

BruceD

 

[Billy Shears]

David, have you ever heard the sound of the idler itself? I ask, as this has been the downside of this type of drive system for many. Additionally, the ability of the idler to isolate the sound of the motor is usually mentioned as a potential downfall.

There are many very real problems you can list when it comes to idler drives. The thing is, even with the downsides, they seem to do things other designes just cant...

 

[Mosin]

There are many very real problems you can list when it comes to idler drives. The thing is, even with the downsides, they seem to do things other designes just cant...

Please list some of those many very real problems because I believe it has fewer problems than the other types.

 

[Billy Shears]

Please list some of those many very real problems because I believe it has fewer problems than the other types.

Maybe i have to specify when i say "very real" ; Aside from the benefit there are some drawbacks listed earlier in this thread, there is the problem of vibration from the Motor being transfered directly to the platter and speedvariatios will be transferred one to one. The correct alignement and deterioration of the Wheel also has to be considerd (especially over time) but at the end of the day it will depend on how the design has been executed and i in no way suggest that Belt and other drives are problem free.

Most of all, i consider that its worth persuing this design for its sonic strenghts and it pains me to see that its been neglected by mainstream manufacturers.....

 

[ddk]

There are many very real problems you can list when it comes to idler drives. The thing is, even with the downsides, they seem to do things other designes just cant...

When it comes to audio the only downside is sound quality, no one seems to be arguing that and idlers. Ergonomically, you have three speeds quickly available, click, click, click and no belt or suspension to mess with. 50+ year old mass market tables that anyone can bring back to full life with simple maintenance that punches way above its weight class and sonically challenges any of the other higher priced designs even today. Where's the down side? I know that people argue some seemingly poorer measurements here and there about the Garrards but can't point to them when listening to well set up samples.

Then we have the high end idler like the Saskia and EMT 927 which are on such a very different level of sound that very few people have ever heard and without any condescension, imagine or understand.
david

 

[Billy Shears]

When it comes to audio the only downside is sound quality,d.
david

I wish everyone was of that opinion. Seems to me that there are just as many people who buy because the "belive" in a concept.....

 

[ddk]

I wish everyone was of that opinion. Seems to me that there are just as many people who buy because the "belive" in a concept.....

True, concept and/or hype...
david

 

[ddk]

A friend has two EMTs and a Technics SP10 mark II, they were the tables he mainly used during his broadcast career, he says that the difference between the three in negligible, in fact he can only tell them apart because of the frequency response differences of the cartridges he has fitted.
There are so many myths and misinformation in HiFi.
Keith.

Probably all EMT DDs as well.
david

 

[spiritofmusic]

A friend has two EMTs and a Technics SP10 mark II, they were the tables he mainly used during his broadcast career, he says that the difference between the three in negligible, in fact he can only tell them apart because of the frequency response differences of the cartridges he has fitted.
There are so many myths and misinformation in HiFi.
Keith.

Yes, and a major myth, although it's only really peddled by you Keith, is that all audio that measures well sounds swell. And all stuff that measures poorly like SETs sounds poorly.
And now you're saying an EMT and Garrard sound the same, presumably because the only time they measure differently is w/different-measuring carts.
Well, I've heard a handful of top specced idlers, many excellent belt drives, a couple of superb DDs, and my direct rim drive, and the topologies ALL sound different.
This just seems such a dead end as an argument.
I like your GP Monaco Keith, a whole lot more than the belt drives I've heard, but it is trumped in sheer emotion stakes by the top idlers, and the reason I believe is that high torque/high inertia/overbraking idler w.gentle intermittent speed correction, approach the speed stability that DDs accomplish, w/none of the fussy "hunt and set" micro-managing invoked by SOTA DD's.

 

[spiritofmusic]

If you mean by "performance", "sound quality", then I am in the "hunt to seek" a Saskia LOL.
I do very much like the Monaco, Keith. Esp since the Saskia is 2x the price of the GP. Don't lose faith in me just yet!
All I know Keith, is that I'm 100% unlikely to ever consider a belt drive again.

 

[ddk]

The important thing to remember is that the cartridge doesn't know how the platter is rotated , it just needs to see speed aaccuracy for every segment of every rotation, and inaudible levels of noise from the motor/bearing assembly.
Keith.

Wow, since it's that simple you should build your own tts Keith!
david

 

[PeterA]

The important thing to remember is that the cartridge doesn't know how the platter is rotated , it just needs to see speed aaccuracy for every segment of every rotation, and inaudible levels of noise from the motor/bearing assembly.
Keith.

That's an interesting way to put it. I do think the cartridge knows whether the speed is maintained by gradual or abrupt correction. And it probably cares. From this thread, it is clear that the listener certainly cares.

 

[Loheswaran]

Can I just say that in many ways this debate seems rather irrational and perhaps DDK made the best analogy in comparing speed measurement as looking through a keyhole.
Platter material, plinth material, platter mats (I understand the AF1 has a selection of platter mats), suspension are just as fundamental, to overall sound quality. Take the Townshend Rock Elite vs the reference - same airpax motor, same power supply - different platter, different plinth - massive difference.

 

[microstrip]

The important thing to remember is that the cartridge doesn't know how the platter is rotated , it just needs to see speed aaccuracy for every segment of every rotation, and inaudible levels of noise from the motor/bearing assembly.
Keith.

The physics is much more complicated then you are assuming.There are three laws of motion in Newton mechanics. The vinyl exerts a force in the stylus and the stylus exerts an equal reaction in the vinyl. Driving techniques and its implementations affect the way this back energy is dissipated and its contribution to sound quality. At the end the cartridge really knows how the platter is rotated - although the owner can prefer to ignore it !

BTW absolute speed accuracy does not exist. All we have are different versions of inaccurate turntables and no standard way of qualifying the best in terms of relative sound quality.

 

[amirm]

The important thing to remember is that the cartridge doesn't know how the platter is rotated , it just needs to see speed aaccuracy for every segment of every rotation, and inaudible levels of noise from the motor/bearing assembly.
Keith.

If we stop the platter, no sound comes out Keith . The speed variations definitely modulate what is in the grooves. It is FM modulation in technical terms because the frequency is modulated by the motor speed variations. So the argument can be that those modulation sidebands are too low level to be audible but not that they don't exist.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The important thing to remember is that the cartridge doesn't know how the platter is rotated , it just needs to see speed aaccuracy for every segment of every rotation, and inaudible levels of noise from the motor/bearing assembly.
Keith.

Keith, your simplistic view of the universe really all amuses us deeply. Since the low torque/low inertia/"seek and correct" GP Monaco may be altering speed every 1/4000th of a revolution to maintain instantaneous speed stability, and the high torque/high inertia/high braking idler Saskia is correcting it less frequently to maintain a high level of AVERAGE speed stability, the cart will in effect "see" the same thing, but the END result is likely to be very different.

 

[PeterA]

Can I just say that in many ways this debate seems rather irrational and perhaps DDK made the best analogy in comparing speed measurement as looking through a keyhole.
Platter material, plinth material, platter mats (I understand the AF1 has a selection of platter mats), suspension are just as fundamental, to overall sound quality. Take the Townshend Rock Elite vs the reference - same airpax motor, same power supply - different platter, different plinth - massive difference.

Great observation. My former SME Model 10 and Model 30/12 share similar if not the same motor and controller, yet their sounds are quite different. I did a very extensive direct comparison over a one month period. There are suspension, mass, isolation and vibrational energy drainage differences. The results are that the bigger turntable just sounds better in the specific areas of resolution, scale and extension. Speed accuracy and consistency measured very similarly and platter surface was the same, yet the sound was quite different.

As many have already written, how speed is controlled effects the sound of the turntable, but there are many other factors in turntable design which also have a profound effect on the sound. The variables once different arms, cables, cartridges and phono stages are included are mind boggling.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Marc a turntable's sum rotations might average 33 1/3 per minute, but if every rotation is different ,let alone every segment of each rotation then it won't be much of a turntable.
Keith.

Keith, from what I can surmise, the Saskia has MUCH greater torque and inertia than the purposely lighterweight GP Monaco. It is able thru greater thrust and idler braking to maintain speed stability w/only occas need to alter things. Whereas the GP is more continuously altering things. My Trans Fi is certainly closer to the Saskia camp.
This is NOT to say from my pov that the GP is wrong or deficient, more that Win's idler may be the only current tt that approaches the GP levels w/only occasional readjustments.

The bigger point is that you're deliberately oversimplifying things to purport the GP as naturally better. Whereas in the real world that we all inhabit, many things have to synergise to get uber results.

 

[microstrip]

Great observation. My former SME Model 10 and Model 30/12 share similar if not the same motor and controller, yet their sounds are quite different. I did a very extensive direct comparison over a one month period. There are suspension, mass, isolation and vibrational energy drainage differences. The results are that the bigger turntable just sounds better in the specific areas of resolution, scale and extension. Speed accuracy and consistency measured very similarly and platter surface was the same, yet the sound was quite different.

As many have already written, how speed is controlled effects the sound of the turntable, but there are many other factors in turntable design which also have a profound effect on the sound. The variables once different arms, cables, cartridges and phono stages are included are mind boggling.

As far as I know the SME 30 and 10's have quite different motors and controllers. The 30 has 3 phase, brushless outrunner inductance motor with 8-pole Neodymium magnets and 3 integrated Hall position sensors, and uses a PID control type. The 10 has a synchronous motor with a PPL controler - possibly using a tachometer, the SME literature does not refer about how they sense the speed.

Some years ago I had a SME 30/2 and 20/2 with SMEV tonearms side by side in my system for a few weeks. The difference was really nigh and day - we would enjoy the 20 is we did not play the 30 first. The 30 was much more "solid", with much less vinyl artifacts and much lower subjective noise - much more "master tape" as we like to say. But, as you said, we can not say exactly from which part of the turntable comes each difference in sound quality.