Idlers vs Direct Drive vs Belt Drive

[amirm]

I use a Monarch PLT 200 Laser Tachometer to set the speed on my Clearaudio master innovation TT. I feel is it more accurate and easier to use than the timeline.

http://www.monarchinstrument.com/product.php?ID=24

Accuracy: Optical:±0.01% of reading

Cool! Another gadget on my to-buy list. Thanks.

 

[ddk]

I feel Rockitman's device, which was discussed a while ago in these pages, is the best device to use.

Good to know, I have a few hand held strobes and they're all pulsing a little different from one another, difficult to figure out which one is the accurate one hoping that this device will point the way.

david

 

[rockitman]

Thanks Christian!
david

There is a threaded 1/4" hole on the bottom of the device that can be used to affix it to a light stand or a flexible snake lamp clamp ect, so no need to find a clamp to hold the unit in place.

 

[ddk]

There is a threaded 1/4" hole on the bottom of the device that can be used to affix it to a light stand or a flexible snake lamp clamp ect, so no need to find a clamp to hold the unit in place.

Which is fine at home but impractical when setting up in the field, that's why I need the hand held strobes but no two are the same and I have to figure it out by ear but with some setups its not that easy or even possible.

david

 

[rockitman]

Which is fine at home but impractical when setting up in the field, that's why I need the hand held strobes but no two are the same and I have to figure it out by ear but with some setups its not that easy or even possible.

david

It does work fine handheld. It helps to have a steady hand to try to keep the distance constant and the beam focused on the 1/2" reflective tape you need to stick on the platter side or top. The tape comes with the unit.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So, NO stories about those switching from belt to DD/idler/rim, other than me?
C'mon guys...

 

[Billy Shears]

So, NO stories about those switching from belt to DD/idler/rim, other than me?
C'mon guys...

I restored a Lenco L75 for a customer and even with the standard arm it sold me on the concept within about 10 seconds of listening to it.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So, Billy, elaborate a little as to why the Lenco "spoke" to you, maybe in different and superior ways to more ubiquitous belt drives. 'Cause for me, I'm getting something from my direct rim drive I'm not from the various belt drives I've owned/demoed.

 

[Billy Shears]

So, Billy, elaborate a little as to why the Lenco "spoke" to you, maybe in different and superior ways to more ubiquitous belt drives. 'Cause for me, I'm getting something from my direct rim drive I'm not from the various belt drives I've owned/demoed.

The music had a kind of dynamic "aliveness" that made for a VERY emotionally tangible experience. It was something that i have seldom heard before or since. You can even hear it in the crappy video i made on my phone. For me a perfect example of inferior measurement producing superior results.

All i did to the Lenco apart from giving it a good clean was :
-Service the main bearing
-Replace the horizontal tonearm bearing with desmo v-blocks
-Replaced the powercable (including proper earthing)
-replaced the tonearm cable
-Aligned the Springs in the Chassis and the idlerdrive
-Fitted a ortofon om 10e

No expensive new bearings or wheels.....

 

[spiritofmusic]

Billy, that's pretty much my experience too.
My move away from belt drive was actually directly inspired by my digital.
I thought I'd got my final rig w/my move to the Michell Orbe in the early '00's, maxxed out w/Origin Live motor psu and Pederson plinth and arm board mods (ridding the Orbe of it's main failing, it's overly springy suspension). Things were nicely toneful and textured, probably lacking a bit in the dynamics dept feeling a little soft sounding, but overall very pleasant.
Then I upgraded my digital from the quite awful sounding Marantz SA1 to the Emm Labs CDSA SE.
Gosh! My tt was really now being shown up as deficient in timing and dynamics, and that hint of softness I was aware of, was ruthlessly revealed. I still felt the Orbe won out over the Emm in terms of tone and texture, but on EVERYTHING else the Emm won hands down.
It got to a point that I actually chose to listen to cd's over lp's at that time.
Ok, time for a tt upgrade, and I put funds twds the budget for an SME 20 or TW AC3. Demoing was a lot of fun, and these tt's were a distinct upgrade all 'round, but that hint of softness wasn't eliminated, and I felt the thing I needed most impvt on wasn't sufficiently remedies for the costs involved.
So, enter moving away from belt, researching idlers/DDs/rim drives. I heard a Garrard 301 and 401 modded, and immediately "got" what they offered above and beyond the belt drives I'd heard, in effect a kind of verve and pertinence to the music, which combined the natural warmth that only analog can provide, w/the advantages that only digital brings to the party. Now I was feeling lp could open up a healthy march on digital.
My final decision on the Trans Fi Salvation direct rim drive was, ahem, driven by it's ability to encapsulate that Garrard verve, mix in a bit more neutrality, so combining analog flavour tone and texture, w/digital flavour neutrality and propulsion, and an extra stop-start quality imparted by the integral Terminator air bearing linear tracking arm.
And it sure helped that it was right at the bottom of the price range at $7k-$8k (although w/the various mods I've made incl magnetic bearing and feet/new arm wand/proposed Symposium Quantum Signature platform and Spiers air table, it's price is now getting twds half what I would have paid for the SME or TW).

 

[microstrip]

A tricky question - the Thorens TD124 should be considered a belt or a idler drive turntable?

 

[Billy Shears]

Billy, that's pretty much my experience too.
My move away from belt drive was actually directly inspired by my digital.
I thought I'd got my final rig w/my move to the Michell Orbe in the early '00's, maxxed out w/Origin Live motor psu and Pederson plinth and arm board mods (ridding the Orbe of it's main failing, it's overly springy suspension). Things were nicely toneful and textured, probably lacking a bit in the dynamics dept, but overall very pleasant.
Then I upgraded my digital from the quite awful sounding Marantz SA1 to the Emm Labs CDSA SE.
Gosh! My tt was really now being shown up as deficient in timing and dynamics, and that hint of softness I was aware of, was ruthlessly revealed. I still felt the Orbe won out over the Emm in terms of tone and texture, but on EVERYTHING else the Emm won hands down.
It got to a point that I actually chose to listen to cd's over lp's at that time.
Ok, time for a tt upgrade, and I put funds twds the budget for an SME 20 or TW AC3. Demoing was a lot of fun, and it was a distinct upgrade all 'round, but that hint of softness still remained, and I felt the thing I needed most impvt on wasn't sufficient for the costs involved.
So, enter moving away from belt, researching idlers/DDs/rim drives. I heard a Garrard 301 and 401 modded, and immediately "got" what they offered above and beyond the belt drives I'd heard, in effect a kind of verve and pertinence to the music, which combined the natural warmth that only analog can provide, w/the advantages that only digital brings to the party. Now I was feeling lp could open up a healthy march on digital.
My final decision on the Trans Fi Salvation direct rim drive was, ahem, driven by it's ability to encapsulate that Garrard verve, mix in a bit more neutrality, so combining analog flavour tone and texture, w/digital flavour neutrality and propulsion, and an extra stop-start quality imparted by the integral Terminator air bearing linear tracking arm.
And it sure helped that it was right at the bottom of the price range at $7k-$8k (although w/the various mods I've made incl magnetic bearing and feet/new arm wand/proposed Symposium Quantum Signature platform and Spiers air table, it's price is now getting twds half what I would have paid for the SME or TW).

Sure thats a fine Table....

I have been fantasizing about one of these for some time:

Inspire Enigma

Its about the same price as your Trans Fi

 

[Billy Shears]

A tricky question - the Thorens TD124 should be considered a belt or a idler drive turntable?

That is a very good qestion and all i can tell you for certain, is that it sounds different from purist idler drives....

 

[spiritofmusic]

These guys do some very nice work, and the prices are Real World. I do believe that at low and mid price levels it may be possible to get non belt drive to outperform belt, at uber price levels maybe things are a lot more equal.
My dream purchase, just based on the "rightness" of my high torque/high inertia/all-analog, non-"hunt and seek" speed control, would be the Saskia Ref 2.

 

[PeterA]

The music had a kind of dynamic "aliveness" that made for a VERY emotionally tangible experience. It was something that i have seldom heard before or since. You can even hear it in the crappy video i made on my phone. For me a perfect example of inferior measurement producing superior results.

All i did to the Lenco apart from giving it a good clean was :
-Service the main bearing
-Replace the horizontal tonearm bearing with desmo v-blocks
-Replaced the powercable (including proper earthing)
-replaced the tonearm cable
-Aligned the Springs in the Chassis and the idlerdrive
-Fitted a ortofon om 10e

No expensive new bearings or wheels.....

Billy, did you listen to this Lenco before you did any work to it in the same system? If so, how did your restoration change the sound?

 

[Billy Shears]

Billy, did you listen to this Lenco before you did any work to it in the same system? If so, how did your restoration change the sound?

There was only two things that were "better" then original: The tonearm cable i used (although still very much entry level shielded Copper)
and the Horizontal Tonearm Bearing (which gave more precision and definition to the sound).

The electrical work was done mainly to make sure the thing does not kill you

I often ask myself what could have been if i was given the budget to replace the Tonearm with something decent and fit a high end Cart and plinth...

 

[Billy Shears]

Rob at Inspire is a nice guy, we had two of his 1210 based 'Monarch' turntables, they were well made and operated perfectly.
We had them both fitted with Dynavector 507 tonearms and one had the XV1-S and the other the XV1-T, both running through the same Trinity phono stage.
Keith.

Does he work with Dealers or only direct to consumer?

 

[ddk]

An aspect of the better idlers that hasn't been discussed is "Money" and the value they offer on top of wonderful sound. IMO a properly set up 301/401 (I have no experience with Lenco!) in an uncolored playback system can decimate at least 85% of all tts out there including mega priced ones and the best ones are sonically unbeatable, even bigger bargains when compared to the typical pricing of so called super tables.

david

 

[DaveyF]

David, have you ever heard the sound of the idler itself? I ask, as this has been the downside of this type of drive system for many. Additionally, the ability of the idler to isolate the sound of the motor is usually mentioned as a potential downfall.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

An aspect of the better idlers that hasn't been discussed is "Money" and the value they offer on top of wonderful sound. IMO a properly set up 301/401 (I have no experience with Lenco!) in an uncolored playback system can decimate at least 85% of all tts out there including mega priced ones and the best ones are sonically unbeatable, even bigger bargains when compared to the typical pricing of so called super tables.

david

I loved my Dobbins Garrard 301 with the Loricraft (PSU 301 AR) power supply. there was a forward lean to the music that connected emotionally. it's noise floor and blackness left room for improvement, and it did round things (while adding a kick) a bit. but you did not care as the musical flow carried you away.

so I get the goodness of an idler. there is more than one way to connect to musical truth.