Why every music lover needs to buy a turntable - discuss.

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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Two audiophile clubs, who by definitiion probably wanted to reach very different conclusions, concluded that they couldn't tell the difference between the vinyl and a digital recording of the vinyl, two generations down (ADC/DAC). And of course you really don't have to accept these findings; the tests were informal, inconclusive. Not that you would accept these findings if they were...
You weren't there - so let's not assume that you know the members of my audio club. We are mostly music lovers, and there were a lot of members who are digital-only who were very happy with the conclusion. Not that they worked any harder to distinguish the difference. The difference is that the members of the PNWAS have an open mind and a willingness to explore, which was why we had one of the biggest meetings we've ever had and I was willing to put the effort in to conduct this meeting.

The other biggest meetings we have are at the "Live" vs Recorded meetings.
 
Jul 1, 2010
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You weren't there - so let's not assume that you know the members of my audio club. We are mostly music lovers, and there were a lot of members who are digital-only who were very happy with the conclusion. Not that they worked any harder to distinguish the difference. The difference is that the members of the PNWAS have an open mind and a willingness to explore, which was why we had one of the biggest meetings we've ever had and I was willing to put the effort in to conduct this meeting.

The other biggest meetings we have are at the "Live" vs Recorded meetings.
Sorry, Gary. I did say "probably" but it was still presumptuous. I hang around WBF, where a post count can easily have you believing that the overwhelming majority of audiophiles are in the vinyl is superior camp.

Tim
 
May 30, 2010
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So, given that the experience of Garys club and the Italian club and myself show no clear difference, (that is, comparing a digital recording of an LP to the actual playing of the LP in real time) (...)
Tom,

Can you give us exact details of the Italian club sessions? BTW, I have recorded the output of my RIAA stage using a Korg 2000s in 44.1, 96 and DSD and in my system it sounds different in every format. Which should be used for comparison with the direct LP?

A good WBF friend also made me some needle drops at different digital formats of the same tracks using a better ADC than mine and they also sound different.

BTW, digital for me in this tread means essentially 16/44.1. There is not music enough for me in the other formats that could motivate a serious interest from my musical perspective, although I sometimes can not resist carrying experiences with HiRez or DSD. Audiophile curiosity, surely.
 
May 30, 2010
14,115
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Portugal
There are a couple of folks in this thread who can not admit that the vinyl process is more distorting than the digital process for some reason. (...)
Tom,
Can you tell who are the couple of folks who said so?
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I feel sorry for digital. I think it is a victim of a metric that is designed for vinyl. It is a similarity to someone who expects to be attractive because they lost weight. It turned out fat was never their problem.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com
Tom,

Can you give us exact details of the Italian club sessions? BTW, I have recorded the output of my RIAA stage using a Korg 2000s in 44.1, 96 and DSD and in my system it sounds different in every format. Which should be used for comparison with the direct LP?

A good WBF friend also made me some needle drops at different digital formats of the same tracks using a better ADC than mine and they also sound different.

BTW, digital for me in this tread means essentially 16/44.1. There is not music enough for me in the other formats that could motivate a serious interest from my musical perspective, although I sometimes can not resist carrying experiences with HiRez or DSD. Audiophile curiosity, surely.
I have done the same, using the Korg and I can reliably distinguish between 44.1 and 176.4. I posted the Foobar ABX here on WBF some time ago.

When we did the session at the club, it was essentially random. But that was club members coming into a system that they do not routinely use at home. I have no doubt that if club member Bruce were to do it in his system, or I were to do it in my system, we would be able to distinguish the difference reliably. When the club's executive committee came to my office to do a dry run before the meeting, IIRC Bruce got it right 9 out of 10.

Ears differ......
 
Jul 1, 2010
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interesting take on the debate.
You're too kind. An utterly nonsensical take on the debate. Regardless of what the metrics were designed for, rebook beats vinyl on every one. Why would anyone feel sorry for digital under those circumstances?

Tim
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
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You're too kind. An utterly nonsensical take on the debate. Regardless of what the metrics were designed for, rebook beats vinyl on every one. Why would anyone feel sorry for digital under those circumstances?

Tim
Because you still have to listen to it.
 
Jul 1, 2010
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Because you still have to listen to it.
Ah...sympathy for the listener? So nice of you. But, as we've discussed so many times, I don't have to listen to it; I prefer to listen to it. I don't know why that's so hard for you, but there it is.

Tim
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
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Ah...sympathy for the listener? So nice of you. But, as we've discussed so many times, I don't have to listen to it; I prefer to listen to it. I don't know why that's so hard for you, but there it is.

Tim
I know quite well what your preference is. I understand why it's your preference. Therefore it is well understood by me so need to make the comment about you don't know why that it's so hard for me to understand. I get it. So it's really not about sympathy for the listener as much as it was a joke that maybe you didn't get. I thought it was funny.
 
Jul 1, 2010
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I know quite well what your preference is. I understand why it's your preference. Therefore it is well understood by me so need to make the comment about you don't know why that it's so hard for me to understand. I get it. So it's really not about sympathy for the listener as much as it was a joke that maybe you didn't get. I thought it was funny.
I got it and responded in kind. Here. This should clear things up: :)
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,504
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You're too kind. An utterly nonsensical take on the debate. Regardless of what the metrics were designed for, rebook beats vinyl on every one. Why would anyone feel sorry for digital under those circumstances?

Tim
When man solves a problem he creates another one. It is like Nutraawet. Sugar is just better. It is still an. amazing creation.
With respect to the insults I will leave that to the mods.
 

Ron Party

WBF Founding Member
Apr 30, 2010
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I spent the last week touring and meeting with audio dealers, and I am quite astonished that no one else I met knew this: If you are a music lover, you have to buy a turntable. Why? Because the musician is delivering two different mixes/masters, and the better mix/master is always on the vinyl.
Gary, sorry I missed you in San Francisco. I had planned to attend on that Saturday, but I was going to a concert that evening and time did not permit. The write-up sounded wonderful. Hopefully, I will catch up with you next time.

I agree with your initial premise to the extent the better mix/master is on the vinyl. I suspect you did not mean to post it is always on the vinyl; we know that is not the case and IIRC you even cited examples where you though the vinyl did not sound as good as its digital counterpart.

For some of us with limited resources, such as me, whose otherwise disposable income is paying for the kids' college tuitions, it sure would be nice if we could know which version to buy. I'm not referring to what my kids call "old people music", e.g., 50s and 60s jazz, where there is a wealth of information; instead, I'm referring to newly released music. Yes, we can wait for others to express opinions but sometimes a fellow (me) just can't wait for something hot off the press.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com
Sorry I missed you Ron. But I'm sure you had far better music going to a live concert than listening to me spin black discs!

Yes, I didn't mean to post that it is always on vinyl - that got the debate raging a bit too hot for my liking. But, the few discs I was carrying around with me were all vinyl. I too wish that there is an easy way to know which version to buy. Unfortunately, the music labels sure won't be announcing it. I also end up spending my kid's college tuition money on music..... but lately I've been buying just the vinyl, and recording the LP digitally.
 

jazdoc

Member Sponsor
Aug 7, 2010
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Gary, sorry I missed you in San Francisco. I had planned to attend on that Saturday, but I was going to a concert that evening and time did not permit. The write-up sounded wonderful. Hopefully, I will catch up with you next time.

I agree with your initial premise to the extent the better mix/master is on the vinyl. I suspect you did not mean to post it is always on the vinyl; we know that is not the case and IIRC you even cited examples where you though the vinyl did not sound as good as its digital counterpart.

For some of us with limited resources, such as me, whose otherwise disposable income is paying for the kids' college tuitions, it sure would be nice if we could know which version to buy. I'm not referring to what my kids call "old people music", e.g., 50s and 60s jazz, where there is a wealth of information; instead, I'm referring to newly released music. Yes, we can wait for others to express opinions but sometimes a fellow (me) just can't wait for something hot off the press.
Couldn't agree with you more! It really bites to buy a new release and have it poorly pressed or recorded; I'd prefer the digital. A couple of recent examples of great albums with poorly recorded or crappy vinyl:

Phosphorescent "Muchacho"
Damien Jurado "Brothers and Sisters of the Eternal Son"

Hmm...maybe someone should start a "New Release That Sounds Like &%@# on Vinyl" thread
 

DaveyF

Active Member
Aug 1, 2010
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Couldn't agree with you more! It really bites to buy a new release and have it poorly pressed or recorded; I'd prefer the digital. A couple of recent examples of great albums with poorly recorded or crappy vinyl:

Phosphorescent "Muchacho"
Damien Jurado "Brothers and Sisters of the Eternal Son"

Hmm...maybe someone should start a "New Release That Sounds Like &%@# on Vinyl" thread
You must have read my mind jazdoc...see my thread : The Guilded Lily. Although not necessarily applying to vinyl only.
 

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