Why every music lover needs to buy a turntable - discuss.

[Gregadd]

Digital vs. analog LP....Digital vs. Reel to Reel.
The question should be perhaps... which format vs. real live music.

Personally, I couldn't give a hoot what the format is...so long as it sounds more like 'live' music to me. To start falling back on measurements ( which BTW begs the question..what are we actually measuring, and are we measuring EVERYTHING that the human ear is able to hear- and the brain then decode??? ) as a reason why a particular format is in one's "opinion" superior ( which BTW is all it ever is) is NOT a solid argument IMO.

This thread somehow reminds me of the time recently when a "supposed" a'phile insisted that the system he was hearing ( which included a digital front end and an analog front end) was better sounding yuan any "live" music that he had heard...

Let's get back to listening to music guys

We have turned the argument on its head.
Agreed.
Just a couple of unrelated points

I cannot wrap my had around the notion that we like things because of its faults rather than instead of them. That truly is the tails wagging the dog. It would be like arguing a woman married to handsome, rich and famous man likes him because he beats her. It makes no sense to me.

A result of a test that is statistically insignificant is inconclusive and proves nothing.

I still await Ethans visit to
WHART.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It is a mystery. It doesn't seem possible that people prefer the faults. Yet vinyl is the oldest, most mature technology in the audiophile's signal chain. The technology is not a mystery; it is well-known and highly evolved. And many insist that it isn't even a matter of preference, vinyl is clearly, obviously superior to digital. Yet by all the standard measurements we use to guage the performance of audio reproduction equipment, the difference between vinyl and digital - even redbook - is found in vinyl's noise, distortions and limitations. There is nothing else there.

Still, you hear what you hear. Perhaps someday the mystery will be revealed. In the meantime, enjoy what you enjoy.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

molecules vs samples

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Enjoy your molecules!

Well...that is, of course if you can find a way to listen to them...

Tim

 

[microstrip]

(...) Yet by all the standard measurements we use to guage the performance of audio reproduction equipment, the difference between vinyl and digital - even redbook - is found in vinyl's noise, distortions and limitations. There is nothing else there.

Still, you hear what you hear. Perhaps someday the mystery will be revealed. In the meantime, enjoy what you enjoy.

Tim

Tim,

Why are you so disappointed with the poor performance of the standard measurements in this particular case? According to their most usual interpretations we should not hear most of what we hear in stereo.

Perhaps we need a new DSD versus CD or HiRez debate in WBF - I think that you will be much less anguished and happy in an all digital debate. And the close to unanimity of the more active and sonorous members will not be so overwhelming, as we have some known divergences on this field

 

[JackD201]

Enjoy your molecules!

Well...that is, of course if you can find a way to listen to them...

Tim

I do and I have!

 

[microstrip]

I do and I have!

Yes, you have. Typical question of Physics examinations on sound:

At the threshold of hearing, the vibrations of the air molecules striking the eardrum are

a) 2000 Angstrom b) the size of a protein molecule. c) smaller than the size of an atom. d) the size of the tympanic membrane.

I can assure you it needs some calculus!

 

[mep]

Tim,

Why are you so disappointed with the poor performance of the standard measurements in this particular case? According to their most usual interpretations we should not hear most of what we hear in stereo.

Perhaps we need a new DSD versus CD or HiRez debate in WBF - I think that you will be much less anguished and happy in an all digital debate. And the close to unanimity of the more active and sonorous members will not be so overwhelming, as we have some known divergences on this field

Tim doesn't have much hi-rez capability with his current setup and certainly no DSD. However, just like not having a turntable and not listening to analog since Nixon was president won't deter Tim from debating the sound of analog, different digital formats he doesn't own either shouldn't be a deterrent to a hearty digital debate.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

Why are you so disappointed with the poor performance of the standard measurements in this particular case? According to their most usual interpretations we should not hear most of what we hear in stereo.

Perhaps we need a new DSD versus CD or HiRez debate in WBF - I think that you will be much less anguished and happy in an all digital debate. And the close to unanimity of the more active and sonorous members will not be so overwhelming, as we have some known divergences on this field

Not disappointed at all, micro, just patiently waiting for the discovery of the unknown element that eliminates all the baddies and reveals the ingredient that has been making vinyl sound so good all these years.

Tim

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Not disappointed at all, micro, just patiently waiting for the discovery of the unknown element that eliminates all the baddies and reveals the ingredient that has been making vinyl sound so good all these years.

Tim

No format is perfect, but a person with a well-cared for vinyl collection that practically eliminates any of those baddies (snap, crackle, pop) can easily look beyond the minute leftovers and listen to a continuous waveform that hasn't been chopped. The magic of vinyl IMO lays right there. You can say that as more and more samplings are taken that the music gets better, but then I'm left thinking that there are more and more "chops" to the waveform and maybe even more and more being lost or not captured. Obviously that's a basic look at it and I'm not qualified to discuss it in-depth, but when you stop something to create a sample, and then do that repeatedly, you lose the energy and flow of whatever it is you're trying to capture. IMO there are no ifs and or buts about that.

 

[rbbert]

No format is perfect, but a person with a well-cared for vinyl collection that practically eliminates any of those baddies (snap, crackle, pop) can easily look beyond the minute leftovers and listen to a continuous waveform that hasn't been chopped. The magic of vinyl IMO lays right there. You can say that as more and more samplings are taken that the music gets better, but then I'm left thinking that there are more and more "chops" to the waveform and maybe even more and more being lost or not captured. Obviously that's a basic look at it and I'm not qualified to discuss it in-depth, but when you stop something to create a sample, and then do that repeatedly, you lose the energy and flow of whatever it is you're trying to capture. IMO there are no ifs and or buts about that.

And yet there are many serious, careful listeners who don't agree with any part of that.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

And yet there are many serious, careful listeners who don't agree with any part of that.

Not to mention it represents a fundamental misinterpretation of the digital recording process.

Tim

 

[mep]

And yet there are many serious, careful listeners who don't agree with any part of that.

Just like there are many serious, careful listeners who don't agree with digit heads that 'read' specifications for analog and tout the superiority of digital sound.

 

[rockitman]

While you are attempting in your head to come to terms with what you hear, some real ones are known, and


John, I refer you to post 260. and the clock keeps ticking......

Given all your specs ect, you still can't explain why well sorted analog sounds better than digital approximations of said analog sources.

 

[Don Hills]

Not disappointed at all, micro, just patiently waiting for the discovery of the unknown element that eliminates all the baddies and reveals the ingredient that has been making vinyl sound so good all these years. ...

You can bet that when it is discovered there'll be a rush to sell boxes of it that plug in line with the output of a DAC...

 

[JackD201]

To find the answer Grasshopper, find the true Beginning.

Yeah, I'm feeling rather playful today. I'm not kidding though. Hint. It's been discussed and is imbedded in the OP.

 

[Don Hills]

Given all your specs ect, you still can't explain why well sorted analog sounds better than digital approximations of said analog sources.

The only reason for mentioning "specs" is to try and get a handle on why "well sorted analog" sounds so good. Analog preferrers aren't the only people who like their music to sound good. If it makes analog sound good, might it not also have the same effect on digital?

But perhaps you would really rather not know why you like analog so much. Maybe it has some psychotropic effect that causes mass delusion? (In which case, if it is discovered, it will certainly be banned... )

 

[JackD201]

Now I'm not so playful. Mass delusion? Seriously? If this is a joke it's a poor one.

 

[rockitman]

What you might want to explore is if an LP is recorded at say 24/96 and played back, you will not be able to differentiate it from the original LP, even though the LP never plays the same song twice.
By now, we all know that LP as process diverges wildly from digital, you can not compare directly due to the different processes they take. But, I do not hold total agreement with what you said, for me, digital absolutely trounces vinyl in the lows and mids, but in the highs, I tend to prefer vinyls presentation. And I do know what is going on there as well.

I have a Tascam DA3000. I have done needle drops at 24/192...while it sounds very good, better than any known CD version, it doesn't sound as good as the vinyl playing real time in my system. I am not looking for close enough, I look for the best. cheers !

 

[JackD201]

Its certainly the big part of the story, but a lot happens along the way ending in the output of the phono amp.....

Think Tom, where does it all start? Where's it all supposed to end?