Why do we love vinyl more than digital?

[JackD201]

Please calm down everybody.

 

[microstrip]

A little more complicated. I lost my record collections twice. I had ripped part of my CD colection and the hard Drive was saved in the second event. I had no choice but building back from scratch. Fortunately I got part of my dad's record collection and some records from another person. So I have some records and I do listen to them when I have the time.
I am however no longer of the opinion that analog is inherently superior to digital anymore especially after having been fooled and have fooled people with needle drops IMO a test of how digital can be "transparent" when the bias triggers are removed.
I don't see myself returning to analog as the main source of my musical enjoyment. I am vested in digital and look forward to its getting better. I am seriously trying to get what the NOS DACs are about . Opus 111 is one of the few people pushing this. I, for one am not entirely convinced about the lack of dynamics of Oversampling DAC. I have been listening to a Berkeley DAC and the darn thing is exemplary musical. it could be true that a NOS is better I simply don't know until I investigate. Now do I get the Berkeley DAC or listen to other DACs, I would like to listen to a NOS DAC in the Berkeley price range or lower (waiting on your design Opus ) .. I have heard great things about the Phazure when it works but it seems to be quite a buggy product, I am not sure I want to get into that just yet

Frantz,

I think no one will claim that analog is or is not inherently superior based on the capacity of fooling people or ourselves in non documented tests. These tests can help us to convince ourselves of what we want to believe, but are of very limited value to others, as they are system dependent and therefore have no statistical value, unless we reproduce them in large numbers. Were they carried using PCM or DSD? Do you have described them in WBF?

I find curious that you are still looking for a better digital but put a limitation on price. Are you afraid of discovering that more expensive DAC sounds really better or being affected by price bias expectation?

I am pleased with the current state of digital - I have listened to great sound from digital systems, and in a few aspects it is better than vinyl. I really regret that almost all my jazz collection sounds much better in vinyl than the equivalent CDs - CD is much more convenient and technically advanced. I would not say the same of of most of my classical recordings. Happily although I was attracted several times by the digital mermaid, I never sold my LP collection.

 

[opus111]

Do you know what the word obtuse means?

I'm guessing this is a rhetorical one so I'll let it pass.

Where did I say recording levels were everything?

Where did I claim that you said that?

But they are damn important regardless of your precious A/D, D/A, sample rates, dither, etc.

Evidence please that A/D, D/A, sample rates, dither etc. are precious to me? Obviously recording levels are important yes, where did I claim they were not?

And yes you are ignorant.

Guilty as charged.

As are a group of people here who make judgements on half assed data.

Names please? Evidence please?

Or memories of a thirty year old turntable.

Age has some negative correlation with quality for turntables does it?

Well it was HP who also said, if you want to enjoy digital, stop listening to analog. Obviously you heeded his advice.

Must be some very strange use of the word 'obviously' that I wasn't previously aware of. To me its obvious he's an idiot in saying this, or he was just having a laff.

Oh and I forgot. Everyone else is wrong and you are right. You know more than Allen Sides--who has been recording commercially for four + decades.

Strawman.

 

[opus111]

No you're mistaking deflection for reflections off your dense skull.

So where are the details I've been asking for? Looks like yet another deflection to me.... My old environmental science teacher from the 1970s used to have a phrase 'its like getting blood out of a stone'.

 

[Odyno]

Listening to analog to me is
A truly but altered (by the different process in the analog domain) copy of the master.
Listening to digital especially PCM
A truly, unaltered sample of the master.

Since nothing is perfect, we en-up having to choose our own poison.

After all the important is being able to draw in the soul of music!

 

[rbbert]

Why is what Allen said mutually exclusive with what Barry said?

One said PCM is best, one said DSD is best... oh, is this the wrong thread?

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?9630-Consensus-Forming-on-the-Sound-of-DSD

 

[Mike Lavigne]

you know it's funny; when i have visitors and we listen to the various formats, there is really not much dispute as to how they line up.

it's not like we listen to things and we all have a different perception; it's really more whether we actually listen to things.

 

[opus111]

it's not like we listen to things and we all have a different perception; it's really more whether we actually listen to things.

I've found there's a pretty strong correlation between people listening well to contributions on forums (like this one) and people listening well to their music (or systems). The people who 'listen' well to text also tend to be the better listeners to sound. The more any person talks past me (or at me, as in the case of Myles's ad hominems above) online the less I'm inclined to trust their ears

 

[mep]

I woke up this morning thinking about this thread and the people who have all of their digital eggs in one digital basket and a song came to me from Tom Petty: " You don't have to live like a refugee."

 

[rbbert]

I woke up this morning thinking about this thread and the people who have all of their digital eggs in one digital basket and a song came to me from Tom Petty: " You don't have to live like a refugee."

It's kind of sad that you think that way...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I've found there's a pretty strong correlation between people listening well to contributions on forums (like this one) and people listening well to their music (or systems). The people who 'listen' well to text also tend to be the better listeners to sound. The more any person talks past me (or at me, as in the case of Myles's ad hominems above) online the less I'm inclined to trust their ears

you have to form your opinions for your own self. and judge the credibility of others as you see fit to do.

personally; people who have gone to the trouble to equip themselves with daily opportunities to compare formats at high levels of performance have the least motivation to create their own reality and the most opportunity to see the truth.

whether they 'play nice' from a particular perspective is wholey beside the point. these people who are invested into the whole picture have the best view of things.

it would be ideal if sometime the participants of a thread like this could all first sit down and listen to all the formats (at the highest possible performance for each) and then see how the thread went.

 

[mep]

It's kind of sad that you think that way...

If it's kind of sad, it sure made me laugh thinking about it. Digital is cheap enough that most everyone can jump in to all of the digital formats if they wanted to. Those that stuck on 16/44.1 have *settled* as I said earlier. There is more to be heard out there in digital wonderland than 16/44.1 and thus my comment. So take my comment in the context I made it in.

 

[mep]

you have to form your opinions for your own self. and judge the credibility of others as you see fit to do.

personally; people who have gone to the trouble to equip themselves with daily opportunities to compare formats at high levels of performance have the least motivation to create their own reality and the most opportunity to see the truth.

whether they 'play nice' from a particular perspective is wholey beside the point. these people who are invested into the whole picture have the best view of things.

it would be ideal if sometime the participants of a thread like this could all first sit down and listen to all the formats (at the highest possible performance for each) and then see how the thread went.

I agree with Mike 100% on this. While I can't make a claim that I'm hearing each of the formats at the highest possible performance for each, I am hearing them at a very high performance level (in my opinion) and the conclusions are the same.

 

[opus111]

Sounds kinda quaint to me... I just bought a collectors box of Karajan's 1960 recordings on CDs (82 discs) for about $80. I'm wondering how much that would be if it were available on LP (putting aside for a moment the difficulty of carrying it home on my bike )?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Sounds kinda quaint to me... I just bought a collectors box of Karajan's 1960 recordings on CDs (82 discs) for about $80. I'm wondering how much that would be if it were available on LP (putting aside for a moment the difficulty of carrying it home on my bike )?

all of it.

it might take some looking; but once you identified the performances it would be out there to purchase used should you be motivated enough.

if you found it on-line the Lps might be anywhere from $3 to $20. maybe an original pressing might be $75.

you might find a collection that would include lots of that. 3 years ago i purchased a 2500 Classical Lp collection for $800. i ended up with about 1200 quite nice Lps after i went thru it. that was about 75 cents an Lp.

 

[opus111]

it would be ideal if sometime the participants of a thread like this could all first sit down and listen to all the formats (at the highest possible performance for each) and then see how the thread went.

Interesting idea - the highest level of LP replay I've experienced in any real listening session (not including show times) was in the purpose-designed listening room at the home of the (late) MD of SME, Alastair Robertson-Aikman, with his own SME model 30. Does this reach high enough in your estimation for me to be able to form a fair assessment of vinyl? If it does, then what's your highest level of assessing RBCD?

 

[opus111]

all of it.

it might take some looking; but once you identified the performances it would be out there to purchase used should you be motivated enough.

That's one significant difference then between us - I prefer to spend time listening rather than seeking out decent pressings. I'm not primarily a collector, perhaps why digital suits me better.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Interesting idea - the highest level of LP replay I've experienced in any real listening session (not including show times) was in the purpose-designed listening room at the home of the (late) MD of SME, Alastair Robertson-Aikman, with his own SME model 30. Does this reach high enough in your estimation for me to be able to form a fair assessment of vinyl? If it does, then what's your highest level of assessing RBCD?

10-15 years ago an SME 30 was world class. it's still up there pretty good in terms of performance but no longer world class.

however; everything else has stepped up quite a bit over the years....from arms to cartridges to phono stages. so hard to say how the whole picture would compare; but it would likely be pretty good.

if you had a SME 30 in your room that would certainly be sufficient to get a good read. but if we are talking about 10+ year old perceptions then no.

i don't have a NOS dac on hand here in my room. however; just down the road is Bruce's studio where he has all that kinda stuff; as well as the same Playback Designs MPS-5 that i have. so i can drop in anytime to get a direct comparison between RBCD on his NOS dacs and my unit.

 

[opus111]

Well this was indeed more than 15 years ago. So then - your RBCD listening experience is...?

 

[hvbias]

opus have you shared your design of your DAC in this forum or others? I more than likely missed this since I can't read every post on this forum.

I've heard many modified PCM DACs (most R2R, my preference) and currently have a ES9018 based on ESS reference design. In my opinion I have never heard digital that sounds as good as vinyl. Including the DACs that many people tout as analog sounding like John Wright modified Bidat or Bitstream.