Who's buying the UpTone Audio ISO REGEN?

[amirm]

And oh, I forgot to say that I put myself to college for four years repairing all manner of audio equipment and RF electronics. And this is before the age of Internet where you had to figure things out without a schematic.

 

[audioarcher]

And oh, I forgot to say that I put myself to college for four years repairing all manner of audio equipment and RF electronics. And this is before the age of Internet where you had to figure things out without a schematic.

Fair enough. I was not aware of your experience in electronics. Good to know.

 

[NorthStar]

Disagree with you here. I have been upgrading for 20 years and I spend an intense period on usually 6 tracks to consistently compare before and after a change in my system. In each case I CAN detect a change, sometimes better, other times not. In some cases some things about the sound improved (timbre, bass dynamics etc) but other areas stayed the same. The human ear is incredibly sensitive, and aural memory is IMO very good. In fact I would say aural memory in an audiophile is along the level of sight in most people, possibly better. Remember the courts use an identity parade (sight memory) as part of legal case, and that is normally quite some time after the event.

If we bring the A/B demo down to hours, maybe minutes apart and with well known tracks IMO we are talking microscopic levels on audio detection here. I would challenge you to provide measurements of an analogue signal that demonstrates a better sound than another signal that doesn't. We have to use tech specs as background data, but listen to the effect of any device in the real world (use your ears).

I would also say to you you are trolling Uptone Audio in a smear campaign that has gone well beyond audio related opinions. I think it is high time the moderators stepped in....

I am not an audio expert, I am not highly technical in matters of space and audio. My passion is in the search of the truth, in the balance of life and everything in it, in efflorescing.
I'm only here for the music. ...And everything else that contributes to it in the best achievements possible. ...Concretely, physically, sensually.
In my life's experience I learned to never give a personal judgement, but to advance on the subjects (post content) with the people discussing them.

Highest respects,

Indeed & Amir is ignorant & remains stubbornly so, of how auditory perception actual works & the active research on it - preferring instead his simplistic & mechanistic world view of how/what we hear. We are much more sensitive of changes in pattern - when we conscious focus on a particular piece of music or sound stream, we seem to lay down a pattern (a statistical analysis, if you like of that pattern which gets strengthened, refined by continuous exposure/focus on this sound stream). This is often why we choose a favourite piece of music to compare new audio replay devices. It's also why we know our spouse's/children's voice & the nuances we pick up on, seemingly without focus on A/Bing any difference!

I'm afraid the A/B mafia have developed & pushes this mechanistic view of hearing as it suits their agenda/ world view

This is the other point which Amir is constantly challenged to - does he believe that there are audible differences which are not measureable & please no BS about placebo. it's a bit like trying to get an answer out of Trump about whether he believes in global climate change

John, I like you too a lot. My friends and family are from Ireland. In my heart I feel hurt a little; because, when I was in high school I participated in all the team sports...football, baseball, hockey, tracks and fields, relay races, swimming, cross country skiing, tennis, golf and chess. Then later on after getting my Art diploma, I climbed mountains and planted forests...for about thirty years. When I wasn't doing painting, sculpting, drawing, climbing, playing, ...I was always listening to music in my time off. I have never considered myself out of touch with life, with people, with the essence of respect towards everyone. I am @ the bottom of the life's ladder, where my two feet are firmly anchored on the green grass of this planet's soil.

What does it have to do with Isolation and Regeneration in audio? That's why I'm here to find out, to get 'grounded'.

Highest respects,

 

[jkeny]

..................
What does it have to do with Isolation and Regeneration in audio? That's why I'm here to find out, to get 'grounded'.

Highest respects,

Bob
What I said has to do with the failure of standard generic measurements to reveal the sort of audibly perceived differences that are reported for USB isolation & regeneration. These generic, measurements are what Amir insists on performing & they have little hope of finding any differences.

I just came back from a demonstration of my own USB isolation/reformatting device to a group of people & one of the noted aspects was the perceived difference level between with isolator/reformater & without - with being perceptibly more dynamic i.e louder. There is no measured volume difference between the with/without as there is no manipulation of the bits.

So what measurement is going to show this perceived difference in level? None of the current measurements. Only an understanding of auditory perception will give us a clue to what is changed in the analogue output & how to go about looking for a measurement which will unveil this difference

 

[Legolas]

And oh, I forgot to say that I put myself to college for four years repairing all manner of audio equipment and RF electronics. And this is before the age of Internet where you had to figure things out without a schematic.

And?

Still say the use of ears is the acid test. Tech specs are back-up. They don't replace or prove what we can hear. Can't see the point you are making hammering away on this?

 

[Don Hills]

... efflorescing ... Concretely ...

I know what you meant, but the juxtaposition above still made me chuckle.

 

[NorthStar]

Like I said, I'm not an audio expert when it comes to audio measurements not representative of what the audio expert listeners have heard.
I've been reading Stereophile since the 70s and we know that sometime poor measurements of some audio products (amplifiers, DACs, CD players, loudspeakers, ...) don't translate in synchronicity with the ears of professional audio reviewers. We've read this few times, more times over the last fifty years.

This ISO REGEN product is only $325, which is peanuts for us. My stocks are making that in one minute, or less.
Does it make me 'ignorant'? I guess so if I don't open my eyes and ears to everything surrounding life on Earth and beyond in the universe.
Yes, we function according to our brain's impulses, to our heartbeat, to the blood pumping through our veins, to our beliefs, to what we learned, to what we know and don't know yet.

AI (Artificial Intelligence); one day it would be running our galaxy with robots in space and on several planets. Meanwhile we are affected by a disease, humanity.
It's a weakness that we cannot relate on. Not until all humans are free of emotions, sensitivities, sensibilities, love/hate, joy/sadness, smiles in our hearts, broken tears in our eyes, ...not until then are we going to be liberated and free of the greatest human disease.

We have music to help us out, and our ignorance is a normal human deficiency, a force of nature. I hate to be reminded, I hate to be reprimanded, I hate superior people taking advantage of ignorant people, of trolls, of sick people in the head (I am sarcastic). I'm just human and I love music, I love films, I love other humans, dogs, cats, eagles and everything that moves and flies high.

If we don't have the proper audio measuring tools for the UpTone Audio ISO REGEN; then it's very very simple...we test one in real life with our own ears and we make our own decision.

If I was an audio inventor, a designer, I would design audio products that no audio measuring tools could measure.
If I was building a car, a Tesla for example, or a Volkswagen, a Peugeot, a Citroen, a Rolls Royce, a Mercedes, a Mustang, a Ferrari, a McLaren, ...I want zero distortion, carbon monoxide free. If I was riding a Harley Davidson I'd wear protective ear devices, or I'd build one totally silent, for a change. ...Just for the good kick of it.

Anyway, if it cannot be measured here, this particular and very inexpensive product (insignificant amount of money compared to some HDMI cables out of specs), then we can concentrate our energy on reading people's real life listening experience, yes? We go from words of mouth and we decide to try it or not. If we do we got something to talk about, if we don't we can still ask questions about. Are we living in jail, are we restricted in our mind's expansion, who's in charge of everyone else? Again, I'm a little sarcastic with a touch of reality mixed for good measure.

No, my last reply wasn't about measurements or not, but about how you measure the intelligence level inside a person. I did not bring this here; I've read it right here, in this thread, words related to posters and not audio content. Shooot, how many are reading and moving out to other locations?

Yes, we're much better @ evaluating people than audio products. And then we are wondering why this 8-foot cable costs $50,000 unbroken.
It don't matter to me how crazy this world truly is; what does matter is respect of the humans part of it, directly and indirectly.
In business you don't mix friendship...what an old concept! The best businessmen they build solid friendships, intelligent friends.

I'm sorry, I'll get back on track right away.

 

[NorthStar]

I know what you meant, but the juxtaposition above still made me chuckle.

:b ...A concrete floor, a solid foundation, a bedrock.
["...efflorescing...concretely..."]

 

[opus112]

The medical science does because we want to determine what drug is really effective as opposed to ones that might work due to power of suggestion.

But I didn't ask 'Does medical science care...?' because I already know that it does. The question was 'Does the patient care...?' and I note you have not answered that question, substituting one of your own.

If you were faced with heaven forbid, terminal disease, would you want to rely on placebo effect of a drug or one that has shown outcomes outside of that influence?

If its terminal, its terminal.

So how about answering the question I asked?

 

[opus112]

And why is it that as a medical doctor, you have no respect for audio science/research using similar methodology in controlled test?

<Star Trek Dr. McCoy>

'Goddamit Jim! In audio, I'm a patient, not a doctor!'

</Star Trek Dr. McCoy>

 

[cpvniii]

I will simply say this before I exit. I think there are biases in audio as in everything else. I think our whole country suffers from expectation or what some call normalcy bias."It's always been this way when I awake each day and I expect it to be this way tomorrow/forever. That being said, I choose to follow my dad's advice: Don't ever wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty ....and the pig likes it. I'm done. Carry on.

 

[jtwrace]

If you are agreeing with him, I will pay your loved one $100 to run the same test. Doesn't have to be regen. Can be any digital audio tweak or most analog ones. You just have to publish the final outcome and copies of the two logs. Are you game?

I wish I had this offer when I went to Harman and was able to sit in their listening room with the 308's, 705's, 708's and the M2's while my buddy changed the speaker with their selector. I failed literally >50% of the time. Damn it! I would've had $100! I thought for sure I'd be able to ace it. Wrong.

 

[amirm]

And?

Still say the use of ears is the acid test. Tech specs are back-up. They don't replace or prove what we can hear. Can't see the point you are making hammering away on this?

The ears are the acid test. But you have to know how to isolate the ear and keep out all other factors. I much prefer a controlled test using ears and only ears over measurements. But that is far less forthcoming than measurements. I have made offers up to $10,000 I think for folks to use their ears and not only their ears to demonstrate their subjective evaluations but they won't go for it. In this thread I offered $100 and still no takers.

Bottom line is that you all don't trust your ears alone. You like to involve the thing between the ears which generates its own results and outcomes completely independent of what the ears are telegraphing. As I said, playing identical content multiple times results in the brain interpreting different things.

We have tools to isolate just the hearing but as long as you are unwilling to go there, we are "stuck" with measurements.

 

[amirm]

I will simply say this before I exit. I think there are biases in audio as in everything else. I think our whole country suffers from expectation or what some call normalcy bias."It's always been this way when I awake each day and I expect it to be this way tomorrow/forever. That being said, I choose to follow my dad's advice: Don't ever wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty ....and the pig likes it. I'm done. Carry on.

You have a very wise father. Thank you for participating as long as you did. Take care.

 

[pkane]

I actually have hopes that the ISO Regen has value in the isolation it provides. There are DACs out there that don't do that. Here is an example, Schiit Modi 2: http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/budget-dac-review-schiit-modi-2-99.1649/

Interesting, Amir. So do you think that it's the isolation and not regeneration that might help Shiit Modi 2? If yes, then perhaps an optical isolator or extender device might do the same thing. Or perhaps even a USB-to-ethernet extender? I see a bunch of these for well under $100. I'd certainly be interested in seeing measurements demonstrating reduced noise with any one of these isolation/extender devices.

 

[NorthStar]

"The UpTone Audio ISO REGEN is the first device—designed specifically for quality music systems—to deliver both true high-speed galvanic isolation and extremely high signal integrity in a single, small and affordable package.

The ISO REGEN includes many significant enhancements over our famous USB REGEN (almost 4,000 sold worldwide)—the original device which changed the way audiophiles think about what matters in USB audio—and which spawned a number of imitators.

Using and enjoying the dramatic musical benefits of the ISO REGEN is simple: Just insert it between your USB source and DAC. No software drivers are needed, your computer will “see” your DAC though the ‘hub” of the REGEN. All music data-stream formats are supported. And you won’t need any additional USB cables (see below).

As with the original USB REGEN, the ISO REGEN uses a selected USB hub chip to create a new USB stream to deliver very high signal integrity to the DAC's USB PHY, thus decreasing the PHY’s contribution to packet noise. It is called “REGEN” since it completely REGENerates the data signals that cables are messing up.

Unlike the USB REGEN or any other similar product currently available, the ISO REGEN’s input uses the world’s only integrated high-speed USB isolator chip, the Silanna Semiconductor ICE08USB.

Why is this important—and why do you want an ISO REGEN? Because the music will sound better! The ISO REGEN creates a “moat” to isolate the power and signal grounds from computer/stream USB sources before your DAC. This “moat” blocks leakage currents and other low level interference from the source. You can expect to hear more accurate bass and a lot of micro-dynamic details that you previously missed. Vocal breath and intonation may seem more "real" and the "air" around drum and wood snaps are likely to have more "space."

With recordings of complex instrumental ensembles (be they electric or acoustic), the music just "holds together" better and makes you want to keep listening. Thanks to our “femto”-clock timing, the sound stage will be more focused, backgrounds will seem “blacker,” and overtone harmonics will separate and decay more naturally. But perhaps no instrument will more clearly demonstrate the ISO REGEN's benefits than acoustic piano—so be sure to include that in your audition of our device. Over time, with the ISO REGEN in place, you will experience less listening "fatigue" and will simply find it easier to focus on the music and not the sound. That was our primary goal during the design of this special product.

While some DACs and converters do incorporate digital isolators for galvanic isolation—they are ALWAYS after the USB input PHY chip and processor system. And unfortunately, USB input noise of all sorts still makes it through to some extent and reaches the DAC master clock (Impacts on the DAC master clock are ultimately why ANY upstream variations—in computer, USB, cables, etc.—are heard at all. If you are interested, please see our easy to digest “white paper” on the subject.)

While the galvanic isolation offered by the ISO REGEN is important and effective, the truth is that all the other enhancements combined result in greater musical benefits than what the isolation aspect brings. We could have brought out an “über-REGEN” with these improvements a year earlier, but we wanted to include the galvanic isolation so we tackled the numerous challenges associated with integrating the Silanna chip into our design.

How is the ISO REGEN different—from other devices and from the original USB REGEN? We have packed onto both sides of this tiny board a lot more expensive parts—now 85 parts—and our own parts cost is 4 times that of the original REGEN. During development, each major element was evaluated—sonically and on the test bench—to justify inclusion. The highlights include:

• A USB 3.1 hub chip specially selected for both its proven compatibility and for its extraordinary measured signal integrity (the best we have seen).

• A world-class ultra-low-phase-noise oscillator (Crystek CCHD-575), the sort of “Femtosecond” low jitter clock normal found only in top-quality DACs as an audio master clock.

• Five of the world’s lowest noise integrated 200mA voltage regulators (the wonderful Linear Tech. LT3042). These are important and are separately dedicated as follows: 1 at the input to clean and drop the computer’s 5V VBUS to 3.3V to power the upstream side of the isolator chip; 1 for the downstream side of the isolator chip (the “clean” side of the “moat”); 1 for the oscillator clock; 2 for the USB hub chip.

• As with the original REGEN, we still create a very clean 5VBUS output—for DACs that need it—with the terrific TI TPS7A4700 ultra-low-noise 1-amp regulator. Other aspects of the power networks were improved as well.

The cumulative audible results of all the above are NOT SUBTLE!

The ISO REGEN is an active device that needs to be powered: On the upstream/input side of the isolator “moat,” power is provided by the 5VBUS of the USB cable from your computer; on the downstream “clean” side of the isolator—where most all of the “magic” happens—an external power supply in the 6~8 volt DC range is required. The $325 ISO REGEN kit includes a modest, reliable, world-voltage compatible AC>DC adaptor. If you already have your own power supply available—either from an original USB REGEN, or our UltraCap LPS-1, or some other quality unit, then you can order the ISO REGEN without any PS and save $15.

Best of all is the ISO REGEN/UltraCap LPS-1 bundle we are offering at a $50 savings versus purchasing them separately.

A frequent question is if the ISO REGEN’s galvanic isolation is defeated by having an external power supply. Absolutely not! Full data and ground isolation are still in place. The benefit of using our UltraCap LPS-1 as the power supply is the same as it is for other components people are using it with: The LPS-1 blocks the path of AC leakage currents and prevents “leakage loops” from forming.

Yes, we could have bus-powered the entire ISO REGEN, but that would have meant the use of noisy DC-DC switching regulators and then attempts to clean that up. Providing up to 1 amp of clean USB VBUS power (to bus-powered DACs, headphone amps, etc.) would also become problematic. Our attention is focused exclusively on sound quality so we skipped all cost saving shortcuts and compromises.

As before, the ISO REGEN is the only full-function active USB signal enhancer designed to plug directly into your DAC or converter, preserving the highest level of signal integrity and best impedance match. (Having to use a USB cable after the conditioning device only degrades sound quality and adds expense.)

The original USB REGEN comes with a USB A>B adapter—for connection to the DAC input jack—which looks “solid,” but is actually just 4 very short wires crammed into a mold between the two plugs. It is good, but nowhere near as good as our proprietary new USPCB—which we are including free with the ISO REGEN. Carefully designed with a 4-layer circuit board, taking into account even the mass of the connectors and the widths and thicknesses of the traces, this new adapter perfectly preserves signal integrity and impedance match. IT IS BETTER THAN ANY USB CABLE!

The USPCB adapter is also available with its ‘B’ plug turned 90-degrees (clockwise to the right when looking at it from the ‘B’ end) for vertical orientation of the REGEN—useful with DACs where horizontal positioning would interfere with connection of other cables.

As with all UpTone Audio components, the ISO REGEN includes personal and responsive support, along with a 3-year warranty."
_____

Bonus: http://worldenvironmentday.global/

World Environment Day connects people with nature across the globe with music, muscle power and green light.
World Environment Day kicks off with stars, music, and a shaft of green light.

What is a "shaft of green light"? ...A green phosphorescent galvanized tree from Iceland? ...The Northern lights?

Extra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_isolation

 

[jkeny]

Bob, is there any need to post this long quote from another site - without any comment of your own?
What is meant by your post?

BTW, I don't get the 'joke', either?

 

[NorthStar]

Bob, is there any need to post this long quote from another site - without any comment of your own?
What is meant by your post?

BTW, I don't get the 'joke', either?

I have two options:

1. Delete it (no sweat)
2. Keep it (no sweat)

I went for #2 in case it gets edited in the future, for posterity, in making sure that all the claims in it remain intact as a good reminder.
I have no bias, the product is ridiculously inexpensive, uncomplicated, using a simple little circuit board with inexpensive parts and a box enclosure that resembles one of my guitar effects boxes. Some less expensive, others @ a similar price.

I don't make an habit of quoting the full claim, here it's not really much in actual number of words; I could have not posted it because the link is already in the first original post (I checked before posting the full claim/quote). And also in case some people won't click on any link. I made an exception here, my own choice; I've read a good portion of this thread.
Besides, this is positive for the product's manufacturer; free publicity, more sales generating. It is well written, no hocus pocus stuff here...simplicity, and again, very inexpensive.

And there is no joke; yesterday was simply World Environment Day, and I included it, that is all.
Oh, and I never thought of you, so please don't make any personal relation.

 

[amirm]

So a bit of breathing room from LA audio show and I thought I remark on some of the other points Alex has made:

Sure I can. After all the lies, insults, distortions, and other venom you have spewed towards my partner John Swenson and me, you are the last person on earth I would want to sell one of our products too.

[...]

P.S. Since I accused you of lying and I am sure you will ask, I'll give you one example: Somewhere on WBF you said that you "met and spoke extensively with John Swenson." That's only if you count 15 minutes of casual conversation (with you doing most of the talking) outside the elevators when we ran into you at RMAF 2015. Plus plenty of misquoting and other distortions of the truth.

So a bit of history. As I mentioned, I was asked to measure efficacy of original Regen by one of Alex's customers. Meanwhile I had bought an iFi DAC with one of their "USB cleaners." So I thought it would make a good case to measure both and report on them: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...t-Jitterbug-and-Uptone-Regen-USB-Conditioners

I did not know Alex, his alias superdad, or John. So it is not true at all that I singled out Alex, his company or John. Two products were tested from two different companies. Results showed that the Regen actually added some distortion, the opposite of what it is supposed to do in people's mind.

As you can read in that thread, there was some back and forth from Alex (superdad). He promised their own measurements but this did not come to pass. Later he said I should seek them out at RMAF show.

Fast forward to the show and I am coming down the elevators. The door opens and I see that Alex is in the lobby. I say hello and he calls in John and introduces him to me. We then had a great, in-depth discussion contrary to what Alex says above. We went over John's career and background. We talked about the motivation for him building this device. We talked about the problem that manifested itself in the measurement. We talked about him not being able to afford to buy the Audio Precision analyzer. I explained how making USB signals stronger is the opposite of what you want to do as that increases the energy of digital pulses inside the DAC. He explain that he was resolving an issue he had seen with older USB products.

I then offered to help them fix the above problem. I offered my consulting time and energy for free. I offered to test the changes to the device using my analyzer until we can have it resolved.

We talked so much that by the time we were done, the show was over and there was no one left in the lobby (we did start close to end of the show). And meanwhile had someone else come and talk to us in the middle of our conversation.

Here is what Alex himself post on that thread after our face to face meeting:

Some people are rather stuck in the camp of "If it can't be measured, it can't be heard." I think more open and scientific minds would think "If it can be heard, then perhaps we are measuring the wrong things." Yet anytime that is brought up--as I did when we met Amir (who is actually a VERY nice fellow!)--the argument turns to "Well you have not proven that people are hearing anything" (ABX testes, etc.). That's where I get off the merry-go-round. Most designers get off there too. Ask any if they needed definitive measurements or a full double-blind ABX study to choose the film capacitors or resistors they use in their speakers or preamp, or if that wonderfully measuring OPAMP conveys music the way their refined-for-years discrete stage does.

I bolded the self-serving part for me above. I mean he even capitalizes "VERY." Even that comment pales in comparison to how well I thought our meeting went and how positive I was toward the two of them.

Now Alex says that was some casual conversation and I did most of the talking? It was neither. It was a good 30+ minute chat. Heck, even 15 minutes would have shown a lot of goodwill toward them. Who would stand there and interact with "his enemy" for that long at a show? I could have spent the time listening to more music and interacting with companies. Instead I chose to spend the time with them and offer my help to improve their products.

Our interactions on this forum ended with Alex saying he would do a blind listening test at his house and his equipment:

I then gave him the option to back out and I guess he did by not responding further.

So there really are no facts to support Alex's allegation that I have it out for him, that I lie, etc. That simply is not true and is not who I am. Period.

 

[jtwrace]

I only make measurements because manufacturers refuse to do so and their customers want them. It costs me money to buy these devices and time and energy to make measurements and post them. So by all means, go ahead and make your own measurements if you think you can do a better job. But if you don't, know that I will be if there are user requests. And there are user requests for this device.

As for "claims" that is what the people wanting measurements don't want to hear. Anyone can claim any audible difference. We can't verify that. What we can verify and duplicate are measurements. On that note, no manufacturer has yet produced their own measurements to counter mine. They spend pages and pages protesting but they either don't know, are not capable of, or willing to make their own measurements.

I, for one, am thankful that you have invested 10's of thousands of dollars into the equipment along with buying equipment to test.