Who's buying the UpTone Audio ISO REGEN?

[cpvniii]

You missed the point. They won't be my customers and therefore I will not have to deal with them. This is America. We still get to choose not to do business with people who wish us harm of any kind. So, one takes care of your customers. And you ignore those that wish to stir up trouble. You just say no thanks. If you have ever made a payroll, paid 10's of thousands of dollars in taxes, grown a product line, created a top of mind "brand".....you would understand that folks protect their hard work and good name in any and every way possible.....considering legal, moral and ethical standards. One never creates problems for himself by attempting to cater to ill-willed, would be customers.

And what about your customers?

 

[The Smokester]

You missed the point. They won't be my customers and therefore I will not have to deal with them. This is America. We still get to choose not to do business with people who wish us harm of any kind. So, one takes care of your customers. And you ignore those that wish to stir up trouble. You just say no thanks. If you have ever made a payroll, paid 10's of thousands of dollars in taxes, grown a product line, created a top of mind "brand".....you would understand that folks protect their hard work and good name in any and every way possible.....considering legal, moral and ethical standards. One never creates problems for himself by attempting to cater to ill-willed, would be customers.

I suspect most people participating in the forum are "above average." So, I going say yes about the positive assumptions you could make about me and make the same assumptions about you. You can guess that I and many others are qualified to understand your position. It's a safe bet I didn't miss your point.

You're position, as a business owner, is that what Amir is doing is, first and foremost, "threatening". My position is that it is "enlightening" because I am a customer:

1) I am currently planning an entirely new audio system so this is all of current interest. My previous high end system, spec'd out 17 years ago, was analog. Now, I am considering the advances in digital and proceeding on the basis that digital will give me the same or greater satisfaction. When a lot of people declare that the Iso Regen makes a huge positive difference in their systems, I have to consider that as important data. However, having conducted informal audiophile listening tests myself (on cables and digital players), I know how fragile (and personal) peoples' decisions on what's best can be. So a chorus of voices is not proof and I want to dig deeper, somehow, to see the value added for me to each component I add to the system

2) Amir is posting data showing, in various conditions, low levels of noise with or without the device. He is positing that the levels are sufficiently low that there is no humanly perceivable audible difference with or without the device, as tested. There is a chorus of protests and counter theories. Pride, money, business, perhaps even good sound, are at stake on both sides. Maybe there really is an audible difference. Amir has not disproven this but is using his credentials and record of research in the field as reason for us to pay attention.

I and others are asking: Show convincing data supporting the alternative explanations as to why these devices should make any difference at all to the sound. It is the scientific method to force hypotheses to confront data. And vice versa. And some of us have Bacon in our DNA.

Amir has some high ground because he has data and some credentials. The honorable opposition has not come foreword with a technical response. This looks weak to me but maybe it's a good business decision. Given the backgrounds of many here, we understand it is annoying to be constantly defending an unproven theory in the absence of data, frustrating if you think the measurement misses the point while an alternative is somehow out of reach, and that the truth is somehow being trampled. To us the resolution can only be from more data, more enlightened hypotheses and more argument.

Amir is a hard-ass, but he is doing nothing wrong by holding feet to the fire.

 

[Priaptor]

I suspect most people participating in the forum are "above average." So, I going say yes about the positive assumptions you could make about me and make the same assumptions about you. You can guess that I and many others are qualified to understand your position. It's a safe bet I didn't miss your point.

You're position, as a business owner, is that what Amir is doing is, first and foremost, "threatening". My position is that it is "enlightening" because I am a customer:

1) I am currently planning an entirely new audio system so this is all of current interest. My previous high end system, spec'd out 17 years ago, was analog. Now, I am considering the advances in digital and proceeding on the basis that digital will give me the same or greater satisfaction. When a lot of people declare that the Iso Regen makes a huge positive difference in their systems, I have to consider that as important data. However, having conducted informal audiophile listening tests myself (on cables and digital players), I know how fragile (and personal) peoples' decisions on what's best can be. So a chorus of voices is not proof and I want to dig deeper, somehow, to see the value added for me to each component I add to the system

2) Amir is posting data showing, in various conditions, low levels of noise with or without the device. He is positing that the levels are sufficiently low that there is no humanly perceivable audible difference with or without the device, as tested. There is a chorus of protests and counter theories. Pride, money, business, perhaps even good sound, are at stake on both sides. Maybe there really is an audible difference. Amir has not disproven this but is using his credentials and record of research in the field as reason for us to pay attention.

I and others are asking: Show convincing data supporting the alternative explanations as to why these devices should make any difference at all to the sound. It is the scientific method to force hypotheses to confront data. And vice versa. And some of us have Bacon in our DNA.

Amir has some high ground because he has data and some credentials. The honorable opposition has not come foreword with a technical response. This looks weak to me but maybe it's a good business decision. Given the backgrounds of many here, we understand it is annoying to be constantly defending an unproven theory in the absence of data, frustrating if you think the measurement misses the point while an alternative is somehow out of reach, and that the truth is somehow being trampled. To us the resolution can only be from more data, more enlightened hypotheses and more argument.

Amir is a hard-ass, but he is doing nothing wrong by holding feet to the fire.

I will make a few comments.

Most high end manufacturers are very careful about who they "give" their equipment to test and review. I know some of the best equipment that got panned by some of the most respected reviewers because the manufacturer didn't control the environment in which his/her equipment was being tested and they proceeded as such at their own risk; particularly the case with some speakers in lousy rooms that YES some reviewers have or can't handle the dynamics of a full range speaker that never should have been placed in the reviewers room to begin with.

I have heard some of the greatest audio hear sound like crap, even those that measured remarkably well because of setup and mismatching of support gear.

I have heard all the theories about why on axis measurement of speakers is critical and why a flat frequency curve is "vital" to the performance and yet others believe it not to be the case and the enemy of excellence and the wrong way to measure speaker performance. Also varies among manufacturers. Some manufacturers have speakers that measure like crap and are "sounded" to the manufacturer's tastes.

UpTone's ISO regen is obvious a relatively cheap accessory so someone like Amir can just buy it and do his method of testing without the control a manufacturer may or may not endorse as in the examples I list above. The antagonists of UpTone can claim foul but if Amir's purpose is to "measure and test" it's UpTone's prerogative to control what and how it's being measured and the manner of testing which it is clear UpTone has a difference of opinion with Amir's methods. Unfortunately for UpTone in this case, as compared to other equipment, the product is cheap and will be readily available to Amir despite Alex's decision not to sell him one so I'm sure Amir will indeed get one and test and review it despite difference of opinions of methods and manner UpTone would want if this was a real review like other much more expensive equipment where the reviewer would never "buy" the equipment under consideration.

UpTone has had bad experiences with Amir in the past and I by no means am trying to denigrate or cast any aspersions on Amir but do understand why this conflict exists.

 

[Don Hills]

... particularly the case with some speakers in lousy rooms that YES some reviewers have or can't handle the dynamics of a full range speaker that never should have been placed in the reviewers room to begin with. ...

 

[Elberoth]

2) Amir is posting data showing, in various conditions, low levels of noise with or without the device. He is positing that the levels are sufficiently low that there is no humanly perceivable audible difference with or without the device, as tested. There is a chorus of protests and counter theories. Pride, money, business, perhaps even good sound, are at stake on both sides. Maybe there really is an audible difference. Amir has not disproven this but is using his credentials and record of research in the field as reason for us to pay attention.

Sorry, but that is only an assumption, which you are trying to state as a fact.

 

[opus112]

It is the scientific method to force hypotheses to confront data.

You have an apparent misunderstanding of the scientific method. Been listening too long to Amir's version of science perchance?

The scientific method, put briefly is about creating testable hypotheses to explain observations. Note - not 'data', rather observations. Amir doesn't get this either so its no surprise that his supporters have a similar blind spot.

 

[NorthStar]

Richard, do you have some audio measuring gear?
If yes can you measure the UpTone Audio ISO REGEN (you have 30 days to do it, free)?

 

[opus112]

None suitable for these kinds of measurements, no. Its not something that's standard in audio measurement measuring common-mode noise.

 

[NorthStar]

Then who has access to that kind of audio measuring gear with the proper methods?

 

[opus112]

Its not audio measurement gear that's required, its RF. Someone with an RF spectrum analyser is going to be better placed to make meaningful measurements than another person with an AP.

 

[NorthStar]

Its not audio measurement gear that's required, its RF. Someone with an RF spectrum analyser is going to be better placed to make meaningful measurements than another person with an AP.

Richard, what do you make of this ? https://www.stereophile.com/content/uptone-audio-usb-regen-measurements

 

[opus112]

Suggest going back and reading post #127 in this thread. Stereophile was making a normal-mode measurement and found 'no difference'. Now what if they made a common-mode measurement?

 

[NorthStar]

I went back to page 13 and read posts 121 to 130. I don't feel more advanced, does it sound correct?

 

[opus112]

Its pretty technical stuff, not too easy to grasp. Even Amir who is a lot more technical than you Bob hasn't gotten a handle on it so you're in good company.

 

[jkeny]

Don't know if this will help, Bob - hope so?
http://powerforum.newanglemedia.com...ebinars/47/pdf/47_CommonModeNoise_Webinar.pdf

 

[NorthStar]

That's a good link John. It comes from a very legit source.

 

[cpvniii]

I can here a difference. Maybe you or Amir can not. So be it. When testing methods are of a standard and the test equipment is calibrated, you get a result. That result says nothing about what I know I hear.

 

[Keesue]

I can here a difference. Maybe you or Amir can not. So be it. When testing methods are of a standard and the test equipment is calibrated, you get a result. That result says nothing about what I know I hear.

And that's that.

 

[amirm]

I can here a difference. Maybe you or Amir can not. So be it. When testing methods are of a standard and the test equipment is calibrated, you get a result. That result says nothing about what I know I hear.

Anytime you change something, there is 99% chance you hear a difference if you are an audiophile. And it almost always will be a change for better. This happens regardless of whether the sound has changed at all!

It is simply being human. When you search for change, you focus on the music, all of a sudden you hear detail you had not heard before. You hear finer notes. You hear the quiet parts. All of this happens even if you are self aware of it.

This is why no matter what the tweak is, it sells and it has advocates. It can't possibly that anything thrown into audio system has the same uncanny ability to "reduce noise level, remove veils, make the sound more analog, etc."

Try this simple experiment. Play a digital file three times in a row and pay attention to what is different in each run. I guarantee you that you will hear differences from run to run even though you have changed nothing!

This is why as soon as we take the knowledge of whether something has or has not changed in controlled testing, all of these assured differences vanish. The outcome becomes random with the person getting no better than 50% chance of being right.

Hence the reason audio science, where this stuff matters to people's lives, hearing, education, livelihood, puts no value on your type of ad-hoc testing. You must remove knowledge of what is being tested.

Teach a loved one to on a daily basis to connect, or disconnect the Regen without you knowing it. Every day you come to your system you play it. And you write down your score. After a week, compare your scores to the loved one's log of whether she/he changed things or not. I will pay your loved one $100 in Amazon credit to run this test for you. Will you do it?

 

[amirm]

And that's that.

If you are agreeing with him, I will pay your loved one $100 to run the same test. Doesn't have to be regen. Can be any digital audio tweak or most analog ones. You just have to publish the final outcome and copies of the two logs. Are you game?