Which ultrasonic now that KLAudio is out?

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
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#61
Nice to know you have all the answers. My main point was addressing your post #21, stating that IMHO there a lot we do not know about the short and long term effects of ultrasonic cleaning .

Anyway it would be nice to know exactly what proper stuff that chemists have approved you use for ultrasonic cleaning. I am always happy to learn.
Are you saying that if you clean a record with ultrasonic cleaning and it plays nicely that in the future there could be new damage? That’s something I have not heard anyone else say and find unlikely to happen.
 
May 30, 2010
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#62
Are you saying that if you clean a record with ultrasonic cleaning and it plays nicely that in the future there could be new damage? That’s something I have not heard anyone else say and find unlikely to happen.
No , but I am not also saying it can't happen. Just that we can't be sure of anything, and people who spend more time than me on the subject also give us some warnings :

8. An important consideration for the record collector is that medical research (where ultrasonic cleaning is widely used) has shown that air-borne spores and mycelial fragments remain on the objects after ultrasonic cleaning, so this method is not effective against the suppression of fungal action: that needs to come from the choice (and "brew") of the liquid used in the bath. Ultrasonic cleaning is endorsed by the Council on Library and Information Resources (5) as an approved method to clean records. However, sadly, a study of the microscopic effects of this cleaning method on records has never been published. (from http://pspatialaudio.com/record_care.htm
 

dminches

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Oct 22, 2011
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#63
No , but I am not also saying it can't happen. Just that we can't be sure of anything, and people who spend more time than me on the subject also give us some warnings :

8. An important consideration for the record collector is that medical research (where ultrasonic cleaning is widely used) has shown that air-borne spores and mycelial fragments remain on the objects after ultrasonic cleaning, so this method is not effective against the suppression of fungal action: that needs to come from the choice (and "brew") of the liquid used in the bath. Ultrasonic cleaning is endorsed by the Council on Library and Information Resources (5) as an approved method to clean records. However, sadly, a study of the microscopic effects of this cleaning method on records has never been published. (from http://pspatialaudio.com/record_care.htm
There is a limit to how anal I will get with this. My DIY (designed by Tim) doesa great job of cleaning. The records emerge as quiet as they are going to be. That’s good enough for me.
 
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May 30, 2010
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#64
There is a limit to how anal I will get with this. My DIY (designed by Tim) doesa great job of cleaning. The records emerge as quiet as they are going to be. That’s good enough for me.

Although utrasonic cleaning is great - I own an ADS, I like to know what I am risking.

Disadvantages of ultrasonics:

o Cavitation Erosion
 Loss of surface material due to microscopic bubble implosion (1)
 However, the simultaneous processes of surface cleaning and of surface erosion allow the optimization of parametric settings to maximize the cleaning efficiency, while minimizing the level of erosion damage (1)
o Testing must be performed to obtain optimum combination of cleaning solution concentration and cavitation level (4)
 Dependent upon many controllable factors


As far as we see Tim deeply studied the subject, taking care of the negative effects - your LPs are in good hands!
 
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spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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#65
spiritofmusic I really don’t know what your issue is here? Or are you just board today?
Just a little fun. What device that cleans deeply and drys thoroughly is deathly silent? Hairdryer, vacuum cleaner, dishwasher, washing machine, tumble dryer? None I would contend. I just find the criticism that an US cleaner is too loud is an empty criticism. Its in the nature of the device.

If indeed dead silence is needed, the Breu will soon be available. At a price.

Just how many lps are people cleaning at any one time to make this facet of use truly intolerable?
 

howiebrou

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2012
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#66
Just a little fun. What device that cleans deeply and drys thoroughly is deathly silent? Hairdryer, vacuum cleaner, dishwasher, washing machine, tumble dryer? None I would contend. I just find the criticism that an US cleaner is too loud is an empty criticism. Its in the nature of the device.

If indeed dead silence is needed, the Breu will soon be available. At a price.

Just how many lps are people cleaning at any one time to make this facet of use truly intolerable?
The KL audio RCM has a casing that you can buy that will lower the noise. images (6).jpeg
 

Folsom

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Oct 26, 2015
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#67
No , but I am not also saying it can't happen. Just that we can't be sure of anything, and people who spend more time than me on the subject also give us some warnings :

8. An important consideration for the record collector is that medical research (where ultrasonic cleaning is widely used) has shown that air-borne spores and mycelial fragments remain on the objects after ultrasonic cleaning, so this method is not effective against the suppression of fungal action: that needs to come from the choice (and "brew") of the liquid used in the bath. Ultrasonic cleaning is endorsed by the Council on Library and Information Resources (5) as an approved method to clean records. However, sadly, a study of the microscopic effects of this cleaning method on records has never been published. (from http://pspatialaudio.com/record_care.htm
If you think I'm going to comb over a decade worth of forum posts you've got another thing coming. From what I collected the IPA, water, Triton X-100, and hepistat are all fine that I use. The only condition was not to use IPA for extended periods of time. These concerns came up with multiple chemists who put them down. However it should be noted that conditions for older shellac albums are different.
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
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#68
If you think I'm going to comb over a decade worth of forum posts you've got another thing coming. From what I collected the IPA, water, Triton X-100, and hepistat are all fine that I use. The only condition was not to use IPA for extended periods of time. These concerns came up with multiple chemists who put them down. However it should be noted that conditions for older shellac albums are different.
Can you explain what you mean by “was not to use IPA for extended periods of time?” Do you mean it should be change frequently or do you mean that you shouldn’t wash records for a long period of time if the solution includes IPA or something else?

Thanks.
 

Folsom

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Oct 26, 2015
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#69
I mean you shouldn't leave a record soaking in IPA overnight. It's fine to put on, or put in ultrasonic. 15 minutes won't do anything.
 
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dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
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#70
I mean you shouldn't leave a record soaking in IPA overnight. It's fine to put on, or put in ultrasonic. 15 minutes won't do anything.
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.
 

amadeus

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Jan 13, 2018
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#72
I am using a Clearaudio Double Matrix Professional Sonic (!) record cleaner for some days know it is very very silent only when it vacuums/drys it has some noise but that is really acceptable noise it is fast and it combines traditional Record washing whit "Sonic" treatment. The machine is not "Ultra Sonic" according Clearaudio they choose for "Sonic" which is lower frequency than "Ultrasonic" because they believe at Clearaudio "Ultrasonic" washing machines damages the LP groves and that because this way of Lp washing is relatively young people are not yet aware of this downsize of "Ultrasonic"...
 

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Folsom

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Oct 26, 2015
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#75
I’m not sure what that would really mean, you’d have to repeat it several times in a row to concur that it wasn’t cleaning something.

What’s good about it is the antistatic properties, on top of killing the bugs. Although a water rinse after an IPA use may be enough. In general IPA tends to make static, so it’s not great to finish with it.
 
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tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#76
Disadvantages
  • Cavitation Erosion
    • Loss of surface material due to microscopic bubble implosion (1)
    • However, the simultaneous processes of surface cleaning and of surface erosion allow the optimization of parametric settings to maximize the cleaning efficiency, while minimizing the level of erosion damage (1)
  • Testing must be performed to obtain optimum combination of cleaning solution concentration and cavitation level (4)
    • Dependent upon many controllable factors
(Micro's quote is taken from a PDF document from the Rochester Institute of Technology, College of Engineering. The final footnote in my 3rd article cites the link)

Cavitation erosion is a reality. To prove this to your self hold a strip of tin foil in your USC bath as it runs. Depending on the thinness of the foil, the amount of time you submerge it and other factors (below) the foil will dimple or perforate. Records are not made of foil, but this gives some idea of the reality of ultrasonic 'strength'.

Cavitation erosion is a reality but it is not destiny. Several factors come into play including the freqency of the transducers and how they are deployed in your particuar ultrasonic record cleaner.

Lower frequency cavitation is much stronger and although fewer bubbles are generated, it's vacuum bubbles explode with much more force. The higher the frequency the greater number of bubbles, the smaller the bubble and the the gentler the implosive force. The relative difference in cavitation strength between 40kHz and 80kHz is roughly 10 to 1.

The effect of cavitation erosion is also influenced by the position of the transducers relative to their target.

Think of a pressure washer. Distance and force. <--

The 200W KLaudio machines feature (4) 40kHz transducers with 2 each aimed directly at each side of the LP at a relatively short distance.

The 300W Degritter uses (2) 120kHz transducers aimed at each LP side at (from what I can gauge by its picture,) fairly close difference.

AudioDesk does not reveal the power used or frequency of its single transducer that is aimed at the edge of the LP. My guess is it runs at 80kHz. Remember AudioDesk is not primarily an USC.

For contrast, the 330W Elmasonic P120H tank uses (6) transducers mounted on the bottom of a much larger tank aiming at the (multiple) record edges at a distance I'm guessing is 3-4 inches farther away than the KL and DG; these can operate at 37 or 80 kHz.

In my opinion, except for quality/reliability, these are the most important features that relate to cavitation erosion issue for the 3 single-slot desktop units.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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#78
So, any further thoughts on the Breu?
 

kkpoo

New Member
Oct 3, 2019
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#80
My only problem with record cleaning machines are that they cost a lot and are only meant to last for two years. That is if the warranty is any suggestion of the lifetime of the product. If you pay 5000 usd for a machine and it only last two years, and you have only washed 100 records with it, then that’s a bad investment...
Anyway, I will go for the KLaudio and I hope it will last long. I only have 150 records, but they mean a lot to me.
 

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