Which ultrasonic now that KLAudio is out?

kkpoo

New Member
Oct 3, 2019
11
7
3
35
#1
I tried converting to vacuum based rcm after someone told me I should never use ultrasonic, as they had done plenty research that show that it wears on the record.

Anyway, I feel there’s a lot more noise and pops when not doing ultrasonic clean, so I am in the market for a new machine. What to do? Don’t suggest degritter. Wonderful guys and company, but it didn’t fit me. I have owned one shortly.

Audiodesk? I mean we have 5 year warranty here by law, and according to my dealer the new unit is very good, and has worked out the early unit problems. Also, it got great review on Paul Rigby’s page.
Input appreciated.
 
Likes: tima

kkpoo

New Member
Oct 3, 2019
11
7
3
35
#2
And does the microfiber brushes actually improve the result? The manufacturers who have “contactless” cleaning claims it is better, and the ones who doesn’t claim not

From a page selling Audiodesk:
Counter-rotating microfibre wet cleaning barrels, and the ultrasonic process, remove dirt gently yet thoroughly; even the finest particles sitting deep in the grooves of the disc. The cleaning fluid is recirculated and filtered during the cleaning process - in this way the dirt removed, or “shaken,” from the disc can't find it's way directly or indirectly back onto the disc surface. Only then is the foundation for the important final step created: the drying process!
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
11,487
2,348
603
E. England
#3
What was yr issue w Degritter?
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
11,487
2,348
603
E. England
#5
Understandable. I had a couple of teething issues w beta testing unit. Good so far w my own production unit.

ADS seem to have sorted early gremlins.
 

kkpoo

New Member
Oct 3, 2019
11
7
3
35
#6
Understandable. I had a couple of teething issues w beta testing unit. Good so far w my own production unit.

ADS seem to have sorted early gremlins.

I would imagine the ADS and degritter being very similar in terms of both using
1. Ultrasonic
2. Fan drying
3. Cleaning fluid

So what mainly makes them different are the ADS's microfiber brushes/rollers. Can anyone explain what they really do?

The filtration of the fan sure sound nice though.
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
1,363
411
440
#7
During the cleaning stage the brushes rub up against the LP as though it was going through a car wash.

My issue with all these cleaners is that they do not do a good enough job of cleaning a filtering the liquid solution. It doesn’t take more than a couple dirty records to increase the TDS level. In my DIY solution I am constantly passing the liquid through a filter so it remains clean. 39F168DD-5C3E-4B25-B3A4-CB9618963607.jpeg
 
Last edited:

kkpoo

New Member
Oct 3, 2019
11
7
3
35
#8
During the cleaning stage the brushes rub up against the LP as though it was going through a car wash.

My issue with all these cleaners is that they do not do a good enough job of cleaning a filtering the liquid solution. It doesn’t take more than a couple dirty records to increase the TDS level. In my DIY solution I am constantly pass the liquid through a filter so it remains clean. View attachment 57466

Doesn't that scratch the records?
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
1,363
411
440
#9
Doesn't that scratch the records?
I owned an ADS for several years and never thought there was any damaged being done to the records. I couldn't see any and I couldn't hear any.
 

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 26, 2015
5,005
841
320
Eastern WA
#10
There's really no way for an ultrasonic to damage records. The only possible damage was already done by playing it with any dirt in it, or scratches. There's not enough heat to hurt it, and water isn't strong enough to pull anything out of the record. Even alcohol isn't strong enough unless it's left on the record for extended periods of time (well past an hour). But alcohol is strong enough to create some static as ions change. So if it's used something else needs to be done to balance them again.

The brushes and what not in an ADS is to try and make the already loosened up contaminants not resettle (unattached) on to the record. The alternative that's much better is to vacuum the record afterwards. You don't have to use a bunch of stuff that'll make the record have static again. In fact you can add stuff to prevent it (hepistat works well, and makes sure to kill off any leftover bugs).
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
1,793
1,291
390
the Upper Midwest
#11
I tried converting to vacuum based rcm after someone told me I should never use ultrasonic, as they had done plenty research that show that it wears on the record.
Could you ask 'someone' if he would share his research about record wear causing by ultrasonic cleaning? The best way to learn about what works for record cleaning is to share our knowledge.

From personal experience and study I've heard no reports of wear, however it is, at least theoretically, possible. If someone would volunteer to run a record through a USC with high power transducers for say, 8 hours a day for a week, I'd love to hear the report. Put a piece of tin foil in your USC for a few minutes and observe the perforations.

And does the microfiber brushes actually improve the result? The manufacturers who have “contactless” cleaning claims it is better, and the ones who doesn’t claim not
There's really no such thing as “contactless” cleaning. I suspect you refer to manufacturers who contact the record with something different than other manufacturers contact the record. Ultrasonic cleaning a record contacts it with thousands of tiny pockets of vacuum that implode upon contact with the record, releasing energy. The force of the implosion contact loosens dirt from the groove.

The Audio Desk unit uses two methods to clean, the primary being its four brushes that rotate against the record surface. The ADS cavitation action from a single transducer is fairly mild. A surfactant helps loosen dirt. I owned an original version for several years, cleaned lots of records with it, never had a problem. Eventually I sold it. Specific to it the cons include: you need to buy the ADS cleaning solution which is kinda pricey,and you eventually will need to replace its sponge filter and its brushes. These can be cleaned many times before replacement is required. Put the brushes in a little mesh bag and clean them in your washing machine.

The Audio Desk is a decent machine from a pioneer in vertical desktop record cleaning. Most of the time it will get a record cleaner than it was before it was cleaned and it will do that without harming the record. A five year warranty on a mechanical device is better than you get with most electronics. The company has been around for 10+ years.

In large, the ADS shares the same problems as most other single slot desktop machines:
a) their tanks are small and require frequent water changes, say at least once every 10-20 records, regardless of what the manufacturer says;
b) they do not heat the water - most surfactants for vinyl work better when heated;
c) their tanks are very difficult to clean and accumulate dirt/sludge over time;
d) although some have passive (eg. AudioDesk) and active (eg. Degritter) filters, the passive filters are weak and all the filters are very small with unknown porosity density;
e) few have easy access for using a TDS meter for assessing water quality, although the Degritter does have a separate tank that allows this. Imo it is critical to know the water quality in your RCM;
f) they clean only one record at a time of a given format Perhaps the biggest downside is
g) they dry the record in the tank which means whatever dissolved or undissolved solids are in the tank water get dried on the record.

The primary advantage of single slot ultrasonic desktop cleaners is they are very convenient and easy to use. If that's what it takes to get someone to clean their records, that's a good thing and extends the viability of vinyl analog into the future.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
1,793
1,291
390
the Upper Midwest
#13

Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
2,810
1,235
260
UK
#14
I tried a Chinese unit from Beijing Ultrasonic. Don't think it is on ebay. Eventually I sold it and bought an Elmasonic p120H. My rotisserie is from Kuzma.

See my WBF thread (here) and the three articles mentioned - #1 and #3 cover the machines.
I like the idea of the eBay machine as very cost effective and has adjustable heating, power (not frequency unfortunately), multiple discs, timing.

I would like to add filtration to this which presumably I can do easily by connecting to the end valve.

What passive filters or active pumps are worth trying? Would assume a pond pump will work well?
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
1,793
1,291
390
the Upper Midwest
#15
I like the idea of the eBay machine as very cost effective and has adjustable heating, power (not frequency unfortunately), multiple discs, timing.

I would like to add filtration to this which presumably I can do easily by connecting to the end valve.

What passive filters or active pumps are worth trying? Would assume a pond pump will work well?
That's how I started with a diy setup - an inexpensive USC tank with those characteristics. As far as I know there are no inexpensive variable frequency Chinese machines.

Forget passive filters, which is filtering by coincidence. Yes there are some aquarium pumps that can do the job. Most pond pumps tend to be submersible. Also easy to add a pump/motor to a housing and build your own.

Pardon this, but again I'll refer you to my three articles, and thread listed above. As described there a Pentek filter cannister with a 0.35 micron filter should work with most pumps and does an excellent job. Several folks have used the same design as described - see David's upthread photo as an example. I canna recall the aquarium pump a friend is using - I'll ping him.
 

TooCool4

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2013
226
131
275
England
#16
The BREU record cleaner has potential, I saw it and talked to the designer at the Munich High End this year. It’s still a prototype he finished it just 2 days before the show.

I spoke to him at length about the unit. The unit came about when he went to a friend’s house and he saw his friend’s ultrasonic cleaner and he said I can do better and make it quieter too. His friend challenged him to do better. 2 years later his friend asked him how he was getting on with designing the machine, he had not even started. Anyway now he has a prototype.

I asked him a few question and it turned out he missed a few things that would be obvious to someone that plays records. I asked him about cleaning 7” & 10” singles, this had never crossed his mind. The unit at the moment will not clean those sizes, I said to him that is something he needs to work on.

Anyway this machine is the quietest I have ever heard since it uses high rotation spin to dry the record, which is one of the reasons I have kept to my Loricraft PRC3 as I cannot stand those noisy machines.

The price he said to me will be around €7000 - €7500, which I think is a bit too high for most.
 

howiebrou

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2012
1,413
1,144
400
#18
Perhaps I should just grab a KLAudio while I have the chance. From what I can see that's the only machine people seem to always be happy about.
That's what i would do. I'm even wondering if i should get spare but the thing is so well built....

I returned my ADS when water began to leak out of the power socket...o_O
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
11,487
2,348
603
E. England
#19
So, it's not just oil and water that don't mix.
 
Likes: howiebrou
May 30, 2010
16,762
1,594
720
Portugal
#20
There's really no way for an ultrasonic to damage records. The only possible damage was already done by playing it with any dirt in it, or scratches. There's not enough heat to hurt it, and water isn't strong enough to pull anything out of the record. Even alcohol isn't strong enough unless it's left on the record for extended periods of time (well past an hour). But alcohol is strong enough to create some static as ions change. So if it's used something else needs to be done to balance them again.
(...)
I have read differently from ultrasonic machine manufacturers and some DIY people. They report that the surface of the LP can be easily affected by the use of excessive power at the wrong frequencies. Although anyone can easily make a DIY machine when we get a commercial machine we are also paying for the experience of the developer and the feedback of his customers!

Surely perfectionists like Tim have developed excellent systems - I really appreciated the narrative of his efforts, we can learn a lot from him - we see that there is lot of knowledge and very long hours of experience in such developments ...

As usually in the LP system the final judge is the ear - people tell that disks cleaned in machine X sound better than in machine Y and it is what matters to most.
 
Likes: tima

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high-end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. A place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss existing and new audio products, music servers, music streamers and computer audio, digital to audio converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel to reel, speakers, headphones, tube amplifiers and solid state amplification. Founded in 2010 What's Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing