Which ultrasonic now that KLAudio is out?

Folsom

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Oct 26, 2015
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#21
Sorry but I'll take the crowd sourcing with a pile of chemist, physicists, engineers, etc, over some marketing fluff. They don't want you to DIY is why they say that stuff. There's no evidence anywhere about problems from sonic cleaning.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#22

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#23
Perhaps I should just grab a KLAudio while I have the chance. From what I can see that's the only machine people seem to always be happy about.
A problem with the KLaudio unit is that it uses only water and allows no surfactant.

Look at industrial ultrasonic units - to my knowledge no one is claiming that water alone can do the job. Sure, the KLA will make a record cleaner than if it was not cleaned - so will a record brush. Depends on what your needs are.
 
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kkpoo

New Member
Oct 3, 2019
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#24
A problem with the KLaudio unit is that it uses only water and allows no surfactant.

Look at industrial ultrasonic units - to my knowledge no one is claiming that water alone can do the job. Sure, the KLA will make a record cleaner than if it was not cleaned - so will a record brush. Depends on what your needs are.
The klaudio cleans better than the Audiodesk according to what I have read on forums, and the latter used a fluid. I would imagine klaudio have tested everything to a point where they concluded fluid was not needed? You can probably also wash the record with an enzyme based fluid first?
 
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dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
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#25
May 30, 2010
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#26
Sorry but I'll take the crowd sourcing with a pile of chemist, physicists, engineers, etc, over some marketing fluff. They don't want you to DIY is why they say that stuff. There's no evidence anywhere about problems from sonic cleaning.
Well, in the laboratory we must use steel baskets in ultrasonic cleaning machines because of the " the transfer of particles from the plastic basket to the held part " (quoting) . It is the advice of chemist, physicists and engineers.
Should I think they just want to sell steel baskets? ;)

When by specif reasons PVC baskets must be used they are only used a limited number of times, as they deteriorate fast. Anyway, the degradation (and benefit) of polymers, including PVC, with ultasonics was deeply studied in science - interested people will find it easily.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#27
Tim, are you using this pump now instead of the little giant?

I guess that is a submersible pump?
HI David - I continue to use the Little Giant problem free, in fact I bought another to have as a backup. I cited the Sicce pump as a plug and play example for Bill; it is what my friend Mike Bodell uses after a thorough search for an AC unit. It is not submersible, or can be used either way - need to look again on that.
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
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#28
HI David - I continue to use the Little Giant problem free, in fact I bought another to have as a backup. I cited the Sicce pump as a plug and play example for Bill; it is what my friend Mike Bodell uses after a thorough search for an AC unit. It is not submersible, or can be used either way - need to look again on that.
I see. I am using 2 Little Giants since I use one for the cooling radiator.

The pumps all pump at different rates. I have no idea if that would affect the cleaning.
 

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 26, 2015
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#29
Well, in the laboratory we must use steel baskets in ultrasonic cleaning machines because of the " the transfer of particles from the plastic basket to the held part " (quoting) . It is the advice of chemist, physicists and engineers.
Should I think they just want to sell steel baskets? ;)

When by specif reasons PVC baskets must be used they are only used a limited number of times, as they deteriorate fast. Anyway, the degradation (and benefit) of polymers, including PVC, with ultasonics was deeply studied in science - interested people will find it easily.
How many variables? Heat? Are PVC baskets extruded or pressed? How long are they left in?

Even if you say took off a millionth of the life of a record, it pales compared to how bad all the stuff in the grooves is for it. And once it is nice and clean it'll probably stay that way.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#30
The klaudio cleans better than the Audiodesk according to what I have read on forums, and the latter used a fluid. I would imagine klaudio have tested everything to a point where they concluded fluid was not needed? You can probably also wash the record with an enzyme based fluid first?
I used enzymes for several years with a Loricraft PRC-3. Enzymes mean switching to a horizontal vacuum machine. They also mean several rinses. The process works well but it is very messy and time consuming for two sides. See my review of enzyme based system here : http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/aivs_products.htm

To my needs,I'd rather have a single effective rcm than two. Buy what you're comfortable with, and learn from experience.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#31
I see. I am using 2 Little Giants since I use one for the cooling radiator.

The pumps all pump at different rates. I have no idea if that would affect the cleaning.
As long as the pump has enough lift - a meager requirement in our systems. I suspect rate is more influenced by filter throughput. The Little Giant fits the bill, including its design for use with heated fluid.
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
1,433
448
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#32
As long as the pump has enough lift - a meager requirement in our systems. I suspect rate is more influenced by filter throughput. The Little Giant fits the bill, including its design for use with heated fluid.
I am glad you figured all this out before I got involved.
 
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Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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#33
I used enzymes for several years with a Loricraft PRC-3. Enzymes mean switching to a horizontal vacuum machine. They also mean several rinses. The process works well but it is very messy and time consuming for two sides. See my review of enzyme based system here : http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/aivs_products.htm

To my needs,I'd rather have a single effective rcm than two. Buy what you're comfortable with, and learn from experience.
at one point 6-7 years ago i had Loricraft PRC4 Delux (my second), an Audiodesk (my 4th), and the KLaudio all at the same time thinking that was what i needed. this was just after i bought a 2500 piece used Lp collection with about 1200 quite nice classical pressings. for the next 6 months i cleaned and listened. about 3 weeks in i had evolved to just using the KLaudio, so then shortly thereafter sold those other 2 PRC's, and have never looked back since.

maybe the most satisfying long term listening i've ever done was cleaning and listening to 5-7 of those Lp's from that collection every night. i'd clean the first one, then load the second, while i listened to the first, read the jacket while i listened, learned about the composer and music, do another learn and listen......and so on. the KLaudio was my dependable companion and never let me down then or since. my classical music knowledge grew 10 fold and easy, dependable cleaning was an important part.
 
Oct 12, 2013
1,983
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Essex UK
#34
The klaudio cleans better than the Audiodesk according to what I have read on forums, and the latter used a fluid. I would imagine klaudio have tested everything to a point where they concluded fluid was not needed? You can probably also wash the record with an enzyme based fluid first?
My experience too.
Had an ADS which was competent enough and then got a KLaudio which is of course more expensive.
The KLaudio IME is in a different class. More effective. much more user friendly and battleship build quality.
Although I have no direct experience of the Degritter I would advise anyone in the market to get a KLaudio while they are still around.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
8,093
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Beverly Hills, CA
#35
The opening post asks an excellent question! I was planning to buy a KL next year

Which is the best one to buy now that the KL is no more?
 

howiebrou

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2012
1,496
1,256
520
#36
The opening post asks an excellent question! I was planning to buy a KL next year

Which is the best one to buy now that the KL is no more?
I would get the full Monty version with the integrated water bath. Seems simpler.

I have used the ADS, Clearaudio Double Matrix and the KL. The KL is by far and away my favourite both in terms of results and build quality.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
1,873
1,401
390
the Upper Midwest
#40
The opening post asks an excellent question! I was planning to buy a KL next year

Which is the best one to buy now that the KL is no more?
Based on feature set alone: If the filter (KDFLT-KIT01) on the KD-CLN-LP200S is not proprietary, I'd get that one. The more expensive unit has no filter. Actively filtering the tank water while cleaning is a critical step whose need seems largely overlooked. The water reservoir offers a way to test water cleanliness with a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter. (The machine's slot is too narrow for meter insertion.) The filter will result in cleaner records when drying and a cleaner tank.

KLaudio's suggestion to replace the tank water after 100 records or every 1-4 months is, imo, silly. Their suggestion to check the water quality visually is also silly. Water replacement should be based on water cleanliness. Where does the dirt go that comes off a record? It stays in the tank. But when the cleaning cycle is finished there is water on the record. Dirt in that water drys on the record. Cleaner water mitigates that, thus filtering.

KLaudio.com shows no information on the filter though they currently have additional units for sale. From pictures it may be fairly common. I'd be tempted to buy a box of them, since KLA is out of the cleaner business. The organization of the machine with what a appears to be a drain and return should also allow use of a simple third-party pump and filter. I would ask KLaudio about availability of the filter and what is its gradient density.

The inclusion of a fan is something of a curiousity because there is no heater. Ultrasonic cavitation will cause the tank water temperature to rise, but typically that is less than 5° above room temperature, given the run-time duration and relative frequency (40kHz) of its four transducers. Use of the fan appears optional however since there are no surfactants whose cleaning action is improved with heat, there's no reason not to use it.

The ability of the KLaudio to clean a record comes from directly aiming two 40kHz 50W transducers at each side of the record at a short distance. That frequency creates large vacuum bubbles which yield powerful implosions against the vinyl.
 

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