What sampling / bit rate would equal vinyl?

[fishnchips]

As I wrote, a fair comparison would be that between a hi-res file and the LP that was cut from it. At any rate any digital file, even a "needledrop" copy of an LP, will enjoy the advantage of lack of acoustic feedback, from which all vinyl replay suffers unless equipment is placed in another room with the doors shut. People often forget that, however sophisticated a turntable, there will always be air-borne acoustic feedback to the cartridge and record. Unless this is also considered one of

its own euphonic ingredients, that seem to complement the information that was put in the recording

It is stunning to consider the possibility that when the vinyl LP was invented, more than half a century ago, some of its sonic attributes would prove beneficial to what was then a totally unknown technology. If not a stupendous coincidence, it must surely have been the providential act of a Supreme Being, the belief in Whom makes "life more lifelike, enhancing your connection with the spiritual, it is a matter of personal faith and therefore of no interest to those heathens who do not share that particular faith". The more so when it happens in a systematic way, in nation after nation, for the almost 4 billion people that adhere to the monotheistic religions. And this is exactly where one gets when attempting to explain a phenomenon in a neither verifiable nor falsifiable way. Suddenly reason turns to preaching and explanation becomes a confession. Pax vobiscum.

 

[MylesBAstor]

As I wrote, a fair comparison would be that between a hi-res file and the LP that was cut from it. At any rate any digital file, even a "needledrop" copy of an LP, will enjoy the advantage of lack of acoustic feedback, from which all vinyl replay suffers unless equipment is placed in another room with the doors shut. People often forget that, however sophisticated a turntable, there will always be air-borne acoustic feedback to the cartridge and record. Unless this is also considered one of

Why not the master tape and a digital copy thereof? After all, it's the tape that's really the reference. Far more information to play with and hear the loss of.

BTW, if vinyl is so succeptible to air borne vibrations, how come digital gear also greatly benefits from the use of vibration damping type devices, be they platforms, tiptoes, Vibraplanes, etc? Answer: both are susceptible.

 

[amirm]

It is stunning to consider the possibility that when the vinyl LP was invented, more than half a century ago, some of its sonic attributes would prove beneficial to what was then a totally unknown technology. If not a stupendous coincidence, it must surely have been the providential act of a Supreme Being, the belief in Whom makes "life more lifelike, enhancing your connection with the spiritual, it is a matter of personal faith and therefore of no interest to those heathens who do not share that particular faith".

Such coincidences are not that uncommon. Take dither. We use that to get rid of quantization noise of our fixed audio samples. The origin of it however, was not in audio but with British Navy airplanes in 1940s whose mechanical navigation system seemed to work better when in flight than sitting on the ground. The random vibrations tended to increase precision rather than reduce it. Surely they did not anticipate someone mixing a track and putting it on optical disc and using dither just the same!

Indeed, the whole notion of adding noise to something and have it sound better is an oxymoron to any layman not schooled in science of sampling systems. Yet here we are. Could there be such an effect with LP? I don't know. But it is certain within the realm of possibilities given the above historical example.

 

[fishnchips]

Could there be such an effect with LP? I don't know.

You can always test for it. Add "LP-like" noise to a digital recording and compare. It would be great fun to do it double-blindly too.

 

[microstrip]

It is stunning to consider the possibility that when the vinyl LP was invented, more than half a century ago, some of its sonic attributes would prove beneficial to what was then a totally unknown technology.

We are discussing the performance of the vinyl LP as an whole system. We should also consider that sound engineers soon understood the characteristics of the physical support used for distribution and used recording techniques to complement it. A prove of it is that the poor performance of most reissued CDs is due to the use of the same masters used for LP cutting. And remastering is not only re-equalizing.
As its was pointed out by Amir, if we understand exactly what is happening may be some day we will have systematically better digital re-issues.

Perhaps when the LP was invented people were not aware of its full capabilities. But the systems that read the analog micro-modulations were perfected during the LP evolution, enhancing the existing features. There is nothing stunning in it, but your latin analysis is trying to reverse the flow of history.

 

[amirm]

You can always test for it. Add "LP-like" noise to a digital recording and compare. It would be great fun to do it double-blindly too.

I didn't mean that literally. Adding noise post conversion from digital to analog does just that: increased noise. It doesn't have any therapeutic effect in that manner.

The general notion being degradation of the signal resulting in better trade off. In case of dither, we increase noise floor to reduce distortion. Perhaps some effect like that is in play in LP conversion of digital.

 

[fishnchips]

if vinyl is so succeptible to air borne vibrations, how come digital gear also greatly benefits from the use of vibration damping type devices, be they platforms, tiptoes, Vibraplanes, etc? Answer: both are susceptible.

There are two pitfalls in your statement:
1. Have you or anyone else shown that "digital gear" actually produces music-correlated signal when subjected to loud music? If so, I would be very interested to see the evidence.
2. Have you or anyone else shown that "platforms, tiptoes, Vibraplanes, etc" reduce air-borne vibrations, as opposed to support-borne vibrations? If so, again I would be very interested to see the evidence.

 

[MylesBAstor]

There are two pitfalls in your statement:
1. Have you or anyone else shown that "digital gear" actually produces music-correlated signal when subjected to loud music? If so, I would be very interested to see the evidence.
2. Have you or anyone else shown that "platforms, tiptoes, Vibraplanes, etc" reduce air-borne vibrations, as opposed to support-borne vibrations? If so, again I would be very interested to see the evidence.

1. I'll let you worry about the measurements. I'll just listen and hear the effects.
2.You're kidding? This sounds like the NEJM article where they had to show that anabolic steroids increased muscle mass. There were doctors claiming that all steroids did was cause water retention.

Plenty of data out there. Google it. I don't need to do your research.

Ginko years ago at shows placed equipment on their platforms and demonstrated using an accelerometer the reduction in vibrations as a function of frequency. Look up the product data for Vibraplane or any other active isolation system; all you need to do is put a microscope or an EM on them and see the difference in the resultant images. I'm sure you can get similar data from Critical Mass systems, Silent Running Audio (who coincidentally make acoustic damping materials for the US Navy subs), etc.

 

[fishnchips]

1. I'll let you worry about the measurements. I'll just listen and hear the effects.

There are pitfalls in this statement. First, I never asked for measurements, although you assumed that I did. Second, you say you listen to the effects, but you offer no evidence that your installation is microphonic (or non-microphonic, as the case may be). The reason I find your methodology unconvincing is that when I assembled my current system, I was able to put in in another room rather than in the one with the loudspeakers. It was part luck, part design, I must admit. Then I had friends "attack" the equipment in various ways (within reason! no one would like to have warranties voided just for the fun of it) while I listened to the speakers in the other room. As one would expect, the electronics produced no attack-related signal, whereas the turntable did. Which is perfectly reasonable, if you think about it. I understand however that my particular circumstances are especially serendipitous and most people can not or will not make similar arrangements.

There were doctors claiming that all steroids did was cause water retention.

Who knows, maybe they used straw-men as their experimental subjects. I mean, just how strong can a straw-man get?

I don't need to do your research

No need to get upset either, scientific discussion should be dispassionate. You see, I have looked for data, albeit in peer-reviewed journals, not in financially interested parties' websites. Obviously this would not include classified military technology as the latter would not be freely available: if it were, it would possibly aid and abet terrorism, so maybe this is just as well. Nevertheless, I stand by my point: that support-borne vibration should be clearly differentiated from air-borne vibration, as the former can be effectively dealt with whereas the latter can not, except in lucky circumstances like mine.

 

[arnyk]

This way a pianissimo at, say, -50 dB below peak will be encoded at 6-bit accuracy. Do you think this is good enough?

With appropriate shaping of the quantization error, this would be more than good enough.

 

[fishnchips]

With appropriate shaping of the quantization error, this would be more than good enough.

Apparently you think the same about the NICAM FM broadcasting system, which uses a more generous, 10-bit sliding "window", and a lower (32 kHz) sampling rate.

 

[arnyk]

Apparently you think the same about the NICAM FM broadcasting system, which uses a more generous, 10-bit sliding "window", and a lower (32 kHz) sampling rate.

Not at all. Why would one think such a thing?

 

[muralman1]

Did anyone mention the 6moons review of the PS Perfect Wave transport and DAC? PS engineers found that the surface of the CD is not neatly in 1's and 0's, instead it resembles the flow similar to what is on vinyl. They spent years trying to reinterpret the CD into neat digital. Yes, according to the reviewer and PS, CD apparently has been analog all along.

 

[audioguy]

Yes, according to the reviewer and PS, CD apparently has been analog all along.

But not exactly

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Did anyone mention the 6moons review of the PS Perfect Wave transport and DAC? PS engineers found that the surface of the CD is not neatly in 1's and 0's, instead it resembles the flow similar to what is on vinyl. They spent years trying to reinterpret the CD into neat digital. Yes, according to the reviewer and PS, CD apparently has been analog all along.

"Engineers" must be being used here in the broadest, loosest possible sense of that term.

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

Did anyone mention the 6moons review of the PS Perfect Wave transport and DAC? PS engineers found that the surface of the CD is not neatly in 1's and 0's, instead it resembles the flow similar to what is on vinyl. They spent years trying to reinterpret the CD into neat digital. Yes, according to the reviewer and PS, CD apparently has been analog all along.

Will wonders ever cease?

 

[arnyk]

Did anyone mention the 6moons review of the PS Perfect Wave transport and DAC? PS engineers found that the surface of the CD is not neatly in 1's and 0's, instead it resembles the flow similar to what is on vinyl. They spent years trying to reinterpret the CD into neat digital. Yes, according to the reviewer and PS, CD apparently has been analog all along.

One needs to be really blind to look at the surface of a CD and a LP through a microscope and say that they are similar.

There is a valid point to be made, which is that all digital data, when stored or transmitted, is in some sense analog. But that is very very old news.

 

[Vincent Kars]

Have a look: http://reckon.posterous.com/vinyl-record-grooves-under-electron-microscop

 

[garylkoh]

Thanks, Vincent. I wonder what causes the horizontal striations on the pictures magnified 500 times and 1000 times. And also wonder if these striations can be picked up by the stylus, and if they have the same effect as dither added in digital.......

 

[RUR]

Did anyone mention the 6moons review of the PS Perfect Wave transport and DAC? PS engineers found that the surface of the CD is not neatly in 1's and 0's, instead it resembles the flow similar to what is on vinyl. They spent years trying to reinterpret the CD into neat digital. Yes, according to the reviewer and PS, CD apparently has been analog all along.

All of the analog characterizations appear to be made solely by the reviewer, not by PS or "PS engineers". Did I miss something?