What is the benefit of very expensive DACs?

[andromedaaudio]

Okay on topic then .

Although its an outdated DAC for most , it was sota at the time ML 360S .
What it does for me these days is make music .
There was a lot more on those silverdiscs i never knew about .
So thats what a SOTA dac does for me , it makes me not switch off my player but actually makes me wanna hear the music again .
For the rest it fills all the audiofile vocabulary increased soundstage improved layering better rhytm more detail etc .
For me digital mostly has gone nowhere in the last 20 years .
May be even backwards in a lot of cases.

Ps im not talking about the vastly increased music choice via streaming off course , which is improvement off course .
Im talking strictly sound quality.

 

[LL21]

Never heard the Zanden but I think it is using classic Philips 16 bit chips and all tube of course, right? I remember seeing the really antique measurements in Stereophile and wondering but I can easily now believe that it sounds really superb. The Aries Cerat gear is using DAC chips that are only one (or maybe two) generations newer but are still old school 18bit designs...with tube outputs of course.

Yes that is correct. I know that the jitter results were poor despite all the i2s and 'then-unobtainium crystal double-oven oscillators', etc. That said, I believe that Yamada-San has also focused very very heavily on emi/rfi and pollution from psu as well as what I believe he called phase noise or something. The entire innards of the electronics are covered in this white emi/rfi shielding. I am no techie...i just know there is something about the quality of its presentation which is timeless in its ability to portray music reproduction. Yes, I think there are a few designers out there who have parallel designs. Interestingly, Zanden has just announced an all-out assault digital that will be exclusively available thru Audio Exotics in HK.

 

[morricab]

Okay on topic then .

Although its an outdated DAC for most , it was sota at the time ML 360S .
What it does for me these days is make music .
There was a lot more on those silverdiscs i never knew about .
So thats what a SOTA dac does for me , it makes me not switch off my player but actually mskes me wanna hear the music again .
For the rest it fills all the audiofile vocabulary increased soundstage improved layering better rhytm more detail etc .
For me digital mostly has gone nowhere in the last 20 years .
May be even backwards in a lot of cases

Do you know what DAC chips it uses? I think the 360 had PCM1702 (the less expensive version of the PCM63) or maybe it had the PCM1704?

 

[morricab]

Yes that is correct. I know that the jitter results were poor despite all the i2s and 'then-unobtainium crystal double-oven oscillators', etc. That said, I believe that Yamada-San has also focused very very heavily on emi/rfi and pollution from psu as well as what I believe he called phase noise or something. The entire innards of the electronics are covered in this white emi/rfi shielding. I am no techie...i just know there is something about the quality of its presentation which is timeless in its ability to portray music reproduction. Yes, I think there are a few designers out there who have parallel designs. Interestingly, Zanden has just announced an all-out assault digital that will be exclusively available thru Audio Exotics in HK.

Have you ever tried a power regenerator on your DAC and/or preamp? Give it a try sometime...it deepens the blackness of the background and the depth soundstage and 3d of imaging.

 

[LL21]

Given how good the Zanden likely is, would you say there is a big advance in digital? I would not as yours has literally some of the earliest commercial chips in it. The Yg of Al. M is also from the old ladder technology (at least the v1 of that model was...not sure about MkII.) and it's designer was the brain behind some of the great DACs of the 90s like the Theta Gen V., which is STILL a great DAC.

i have a couple of DACs from Kinergetics and PS Audio (old PS Audio) that used the now famous UltraAnalog 20 bit modules and they are superbly musical. My Monarchy uses the BurrBrown PCM-63, one of the all-time greats and the AC Kassandra has 8 x AD1865 per channel. These were SOTA chips from the past and used right are still SOTA in many ways.

Candidly Morricab, I am one of the last guys to ask: 1) i have 0 technical understanding of what constitutes an advance in digital vs someone who just came out with a 'new digital product' that is just a re-hash of old ideas in a new container. 2) i am no longer that familiar with the latest digital...again the last generation of digital i heard was contemporaneous with the vivaldi.

With that huge caveat in mind, i CAN say that I heard a lot of digital up through that point, and while the prices ranged all over the place, I did not consistently hear 'better with price or what i was told was newer tech'. I also did not feel like there were 'massive improvements' the way i hear with the latest equipment racks/isolation or amplification or certainly speakers. I have heard very very good things about some of the older DAC chips, and believe some of the 'latest designs' actually use these older chips.

 

[Al M.]

Thank you! If its alright I will PM so I dont eat up air time on this thread...

Yes, please do.

 

[LL21]

Have you ever tried a power regenerator on your DAC and/or preamp? Give it a try sometime...it deepens the blackness of the background and the depth soundstage and 3d of imaging.

Thanks... i dont use a power regenerator, but DO use a Burmester 948 Power Conditioner that is then plugged into a Torus AVR16 which is then plugged into a dedicated 20amp socket. I tried a regenerator maybe 12 years ago and liked but did not love it...i am hearing great things about the PS Audio P20 but did not have the chance to hear it...and then I came along a 2nd hand Torus AVR16 and reading everything about balance power, Torus, etc I tried it and really liked it.

 

[Al M.]

Given how good the Zanden likely is, would you say there is a big advance in digital? I would not as yours has literally some of the earliest commercial chips in it. The Yg of Al. M is also from the old ladder technology (at least the v1 of that model was...not sure about MkII.) and it's designer was the brain behind some of the great DACs of the 90s like the Theta Gen V., which is STILL a great DAC.

Mk II of the Yggy has the same four ladder DAC chips, but implemented with even greater suppression of the problematic zero crossing distortion from this industrial DAC chip (in version 1 it was already 110 dB down, into the noise floor). That zero crossing distortion had prevented the expensive precision DAC chip to be recommended by the manufacturer for audio.

People who have both the Theta and Yggy DACs and have tested them side by side typically report that the latter significantly surpasses the former in sound quality.

For what it's worth, Mike Moffat, the designer, only likes ladder DACs, and very much dislikes modern delta sigma.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Do you know what DAC chips it uses? I think the 360 had PCM1702 (the less expensive version of the PCM63) or maybe it had the PCM1704?

I read the manual in there it says it does 16 bit 44.1 khz - 48 khz and 24 bit 96 khz .
Digital decoding and filtering is done by Sharc DSP chips .

I ll try too see if i can find more on the net.

 

[andromedaaudio]

MARK LEVINSON NO.360S DAC - QUAD MULTIBIT 24-BIT BURR-BROWN PCM1704'S

Thats according to an ad description on the net

 

[LL21]

MARK LEVINSON NO.360S DAC - QUAD MULTIBIT 24-BIT BURR-BROWN PCM1704'S

Thats according to an ad description on the net

I have read very good things about the BB1704

 

[LL21]

Yes, please do.

PM sent! Thanks for any guidance.

 

[LL21]

MARK LEVINSON NO.360S DAC - QUAD MULTIBIT 24-BIT BURR-BROWN PCM1704'S

Thats according to an ad description on the net

From the Stereophile Review: https://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/187/index.html

"The No.360 differs from the more expensive No.360S in four ways. First, the No.360 has two 32-bit DSP chips to handle digital filtering and decoding; the No.360S has four. This means that the No.360S has twice the computational power and is capable of a wider range of future software options, but this probably means little for current performance. Second, while both have dual 24-bit DACs (Burr-Brown PCM1704) in each channel, the No.360's output level matching is accomplished with high-tolerance Vishay potentiometers, while hand-calibrated bulk metal-foil resistors are mated (to a tolerance of ±0.0002%!) to each of the No.360S's DACs. Third, the No.360S uses four-layer cyanate-ester printed circuit boards rather than the No.360's two-layer fiberglass/epoxy boards. Finally, the No.360S has separate discrete regulators for left and right channels, and local reservoirs for critical components based on relatively rare OSCON caps. An upgrade from the No.360 to No.360S is available from Madrigal. The R-2R DACs run at 8fs (352.8kHz or 384kHz) and the '360 can handle input data rates up to 96kHz."

 

[morricab]

I have read very good things about the BB1704

Interestingly, we compared an identical DAC (Monarchy Audio M24 and NM24) where the M24 has the older PCM63 (20bit chip) and the NM was the PCM1704. To our ears the PCM63 based machine sounded better even though basically everything else was the same. It was close though...

 

[spiritofmusic]

I thought the answer to this thread was getting the warm glow of satisfaction that your fat cheque helped pay for another holiday for the designer Lol.

 

[LL21]

Interestingly, we compared an identical DAC (Monarchy Audio M24 and NM24) where the M24 has the older PCM63 (20bit chip) and the NM was the PCM1704. To our ears the PCM63 based machine sounded better even though basically everything else was the same. It was close though...

I have read good things about the PCM63 as well...perhaps from you? I think you have mentioned this before, and I do remember filing this away mentally.

 

[musicfirst1]

Hold up...you've heard the Rockport Lyra?...can I ask the judges for a 5 minute commercial break? How was it? Was this at Goodwins? I have heard the Altair 2s with the Vivaldi there and Constellations I believe.

How was it? Pls answer if you can...and then we can go back to our regularly scheduled programming...

I heard the Lyras at a dedicated listening room in NYC with Soulution, Behold, Kubala Sosna and TOL Elrod power cords.
My intent was to sell my much loved Cygnus and buy a pair of the Lyras.
I came away thinking that the Lyras, while better than the Cygnus, were not a big enough improvement at almost three times the money to follow through with my original plan. Based on this audition, the Lyras were not in my personal top 3 speakers, which include the Alsyvox and the Bayz, (which I bought and now distribute here in Canada).
If you want Rockports, my suggestion would be to buy the Cygnus and spend the 6 figure difference on electronics.
I would expect the Cygnus fronted by world class electronics, would be better than the Lyras fronted by lesser electronics.

 

[LL21]

I heard the Lyras at a dedicated listening room in NYC with Soulution, Behold, Kubala Sosna and TOL Elrod power cords.
My intent was to sell my Cygnus' and buy a pair of the Lyras.
I came away thinking that the Lyras, while better than the Cygnus, were not a big enough improvement at almost three times the money to follow through with my original plan. Based on this audition, the Lyras were not in my personal top 3 speakers, which include the Alsyvox and the Bayz, (which I bought and now distribute here in Canada).
If you want Rockports, my suggestion would be to buy the Cygnus and spend the 6 figure difference on electronics.
I would expect the Cygnus fronted by world class electronics, would be better than the Lyras fronted by lesser electronics.

Wow...great feedback! Thanks for that. Good to keep in mind!

 

[Al M.]

Interesting. I heard the Cygnus in a so so demo and later in an abysmal one, and the Lyra in a so much better demo.

It all depends on the circumstances of the demo. Nothing beats to try things out for yourself before buying, and hope the demo is any good.

 

[LL21]

Interesting. I heard the Cygnus in a so so demo and later in an abysmal one, and the Lyra in a so much better demo.

It all depends on the circumstances of the demo. Nothing beats to try things out for yourself before buying, and hope the demo is any good.

Also great feedback...and very wise words.