What is going to be your endgame speaker?

[thomask]

Vintage second hand produces some great bargains!

If the seller is within 5 hours drive, I will drive there to get it.

But I am not comfortable to drive 15 hours by myself.

My photo hobby sharing friend is now in Germany to celebrate the birth of his granddaughter.

If he is in Washington State, we may take turns while taking photos on the way.

 

[Robh3606]

A long response to tell us about your credentials and that you joined the DIY community in this hobby. A valid approach that I respect and would love to join if I had the time and motivation, but surely can't be considered an example of endgame.

Why not a DIY end game system??? You are talking about a personal choice. That's the benchmark.

DIY has advantages you normally can't get purchasing by brand alone. You have a enormous choice of drivers to chose from so you can select and mix and match by individual driver characteristics and types.

I have been running a 4 way active system for close to 20 years and have been able to change out and upgrade drivers as the technology moved on. Can't do that with manufactured systems.

Not even going to get into the systems you can clone for a fraction of the manufacturers cost or what you can build if you can access a schematic and driver set.

DIY doesn't mean it is not a successful design. As long as it checks your boxes all is good.

That is one of the reasons for my previous response do we ever get there. As time marches on so does technology and while not all changes bring an obvious improvement some certainly do. With DIY you can stay current at a substantially less cost as you are typically just make driver changes and crossover tweaks as opposed to purchasing complete systems with the improved drivers.

Rob

 

[thomask]

Apogee Diva was my endgame speaker on 1989 but could not afford it and settled on Duetta Sig instead.

It is available at reasonable price but local pickup only.

If I want to get it, I have to drive 15 hours

This one had been sold to someone.

I wish the person enjoy it.

I also want to get it but not driving 15 hours one way.

 

[Salectric]

The impression of detail can be heightened or reduced through many mechanisms - frequency response, time alignment, phase response, resonance/vibration management, etc. For example if you boost treble/upper midrange there will be more apparent detail, same if you reduce midbass. If you do the opposite you will get more warmth and less detail. Too much and you get into muddiness. By changing driver alignments you will also affect the impression of detail. Changing the spikes/support on your speakers also.

It's not just speakers, all the way through the chain, the design choices determine how much detail you perceive and how it is organized. If I swap the AC output phase of the Power transformer in any of my equipment I will get more perceived detail at the expense of smoothness and coherence.

Sure, we cannot have it all, we need to chose from:

how flat a frequency response
how extended the frequency response - e.g. 10hz to 50kHz
how high the sensitivity
how important is the radation pattern
does coherency matter (time alignment, phase coherency, crossover design)
ease of drive
the rigidity of enclosure
the size of the speaker
the speaker cosmetics

My friend values coherency above everything else, so he chose to sacrifice frequency extension and flat frequency response and went for a "full range" single driver speaker. He also got good sensitivity and an easy to drive impedance allowing the use of small powered SET amps which are extremely involving musically.

Coherence is also very important to me, but I cannot live with a single driver speaker. I need more extension (35Hz to 18KHz) and a flatter frequency response. I therefore go for either a 2-way or very carefully designed 3-way.

As you go for greater frequency extension, the requirement for more drivers increases and you have to sacrifice other variables such as cabinet size, easy to drive impedance, sensitivity, etc. More drivers and bigger cabinets requires greater engineering to have rigid cabinets, and the crossovers get very complicated. Less efficient, low impedance speakers require massive power amps that in themselves tend to be missing in the musicality stakes


That's great!! You are happy and enjoy the hobby along with the excitement for your future upgrades.



I have only been in the hobby for 50 years. I have worked in both the hifi industry and the pro/recording side. I have friends that are reviewers and designers and have learned a lot from them. I hope to stay humble enough to keep learning.

I know what I want from my music system and very satisfied with my current gear - I am particularly sensitive to rhythm and timing and musical flow. I do upgrade, but these are usually small things (e.g. I just changed the RCA connectors on my ICs from brass to NextGen Copper, and the feet under my power amp)

I got into DIY 30 years ago and learned a lot quickly by making every mistake in the book. I have a favourite pair of 2-way monitors (1st order linear phase) designed by Chris Bryant and Martin Colloms which do most of what I value. I have build external crossovers for them and have used the highest level of parts connectors, and wire.

My end game speakers are a 3-way speaker that I have been building myself for the past 13 years (I spent a year on them, got interrupted and then started again during our famous Melbourne CV lock down). This is my attempt to do everything that is important to me, that no manufacturer does.

Coherency comes first so a full range Supravox driver operating from 180Hz to 6KHz, a Wolf Von Langa 15" bass 30Hz to 180Hz and Seas Exotic Alnico 1.5" tweeter from 5Khz up. The crossover is external, 1st order with the best parts. The Supravox is open baffle for reduced cabinet coloration and all the drivers are time aligned. The sensitivity is 94db with an 8ohm load and the phase is within +/- 20deg.

I am continually experimenting with the fine tuning of these, but they do what my mini monitors (a bit better) plus they scale better, go lower and are more dynamic. They don't go below 20Hz and they don't go above 20KHz.

I go to shows (always a disappointment if you expect good sound) and visit a lot of other people and am always open to learning.

Sorry this response is so long

Where are you getting the Wolf Von Langa woofer?

 

[dcathro]

Where are you getting the Wolf Von Langa woofer?

I bought them of Wolf back in 2009. At the time he was selling field coil drivers using JBL and Altec parts.

i had the choice of a 416 based Altec or the K145 based JBL and went for the JBL.

 

[gleeds]

I could not find a commercial speaker that did what I need, so I built my own.

I love the coherency of the best full range drivers and the dynamics of high efficiency speakers with big woofers. I love paper cones and soft dome tweeters. I love Alnico magnets and field coils.

I like 2 way and 3 way systems because anything greater than that is almost impossible to integrate into a coherent whole.

In my opinion, the only crossover topology that allows a multi way speaker to approach a single driver's coherency is first order along with time alignment of the drivers.

If I was to chose a commercial speaker today, it might be a horn based one like Classic Audio.

From all my travels the Destination Audio Vista Horns (with and without field coil) would be the end game so long as you paired them with great low wattage SE amplifiers (also available from DA as 45 tube 2 watters). I absolutely love these speakers - dynamics for days, coherence and saturated colors that sound like the life, breath and soul of music! Only 3-4 pairs a year can be made as the horn alone has several thousand pieces of glued up aged wood.

In a similarly bespoke quality for less dollars, the Songer S2 dipole full-rangers are excellent. They do not have the dynamics of the big Vista horns (very few do) but in all other areas referenced above they are exceptional field coils of uncompromising musicality.

 

[LL21]

From all my travels the Destination Audio Vista Horns (with and without field coil) would be the end game so long as you paired them with great low wattage SE amplifiers (also available from DA as 45 tube 2 watters). I absolutely love these speakers - dynamics for days, coherence and saturated colors that sound like the life, breath and soul of music! Only 3-4 pairs a year can be made as the horn alone has several thousand pieces of glued up aged wood.

In a similarly bespoke quality for less dollars, the Songer S2 dipole full-rangers are excellent. They do not have the dynamics of the big Vista horns (very few do) but in all other areas referenced above they are exceptional field coils of uncompromising musicality.


View attachment 121146View attachment 121147

Interested to hear the Vistas some day. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[dcathro]

From all my travels the Destination Audio Vista Horns (with and without field coil) would be the end game so long as you paired them with great low wattage SE amplifiers (also available from DA as 45 tube 2 watters). I absolutely love these speakers - dynamics for days, coherence and saturated colors that sound like the life, breath and soul of music! Only 3-4 pairs a year can be made as the horn alone has several thousand pieces of glued up aged wood.

In a similarly bespoke quality for less dollars, the Songer S2 dipole full-rangers are excellent. They do not have the dynamics of the big Vista horns (very few do) but in all other areas referenced above they are exceptional field coils of uncompromising musicality.


View attachment 121146View attachment 121147

Thank You!

I don't know, and haven't heard, the Destination Audio horns, but I am in Australia so there are a lot of brands that we don't get to experience.

They certainly look interesting.

I have been following Ken Songer's efforts for a while, but again have not heard them. Maybe next year I should broaden my horizons and make a trip to Munich.

I have heard Rullit 10" Aero full range Field Coils in open baffles and have been very impressed. The Treehaus open baffle designs based around these look interesting.

There certainly are a lot off interesting new speakers coming onto the market.

 

[JasperJ]

View attachment 117378

Just side note,

I got Puritan 156 10 days ago.

It really improved bass and reduced hash to make my system more musical.

That is the best bang for the money.

You may want to try that.

Did the first two weeks sound really lean to you? I am starting week 3 and still hear a lack of 200-300hz information coming though. Did you happen to change out the supplied mains cord?

 

[thomask]

Did the first two weeks sound really lean to you? I am starting week 3 and still hear a lack of 200-300hz information coming though. Did you happen to change out the supplied mains cord?

It may be dependent on system.

Most people including me did not notice such problem.

 

[gleeds]

Thank You!

I don't know, and haven't heard, the Destination Audio horns, but I am in Australia so there are a lot of brands that we don't get to experience.

They certainly look interesting.

I have been following Ken Songer's efforts for a while, but again have not heard them. Maybe next year I should broaden my horizons and make a trip to Munich.

I have heard Rullit 10" Aero full range Field Coils in open baffles and have been very impressed. The Treehaus open baffle designs based around these look interesting.

There certainly are a lot off interesting new speakers coming onto the market.

Destination Audio will be at Hi Fi Deluxe in Munich this year for the first time showing their Nika speaker and GM-70 integrated amplifier. Unfortunately Songer Audio will not be there but I can attest to their excellence. We will show with them in March at the Dallas show "SWAF" powering them with the Trafomatic Rhapsody 300B integrated amplifier, another wonderful pairing. Whether to find just the right end-game speaker or to just simply enjoy the spectacle there is nothing quite like HE Munich so I encourage you to make the trip.

 

[morricab]

Destination Audio will be at Hi Fi Deluxe in Munich this year for the first time showing their Nika speaker and GM-70 integrated amplifier. Unfortunately Songer Audio will not be there but I can attest to their excellence. We will show with them in March at the Dallas show "SWAF" powering them with the Trafomatic Rhapsody 300B integrated amplifier, another wonderful pairing. Whether to find just the right end-game speaker or to just simply enjoy the spectacle there is nothing quite like HE Munich so I encourage you to make the trip.

Sounds like a promising combo…I will be there!

 

[Geardaddy]

From all my travels the Destination Audio Vista Horns (with and without field coil) would be the end game so long as you paired them with great low wattage SE amplifiers (also available from DA as 45 tube 2 watters). I absolutely love these speakers - dynamics for days, coherence and saturated colors that sound like the life, breath and soul of music! Only 3-4 pairs a year can be made as the horn alone has several thousand pieces of glued up aged wood.

In a similarly bespoke quality for less dollars, the Songer S2 dipole full-rangers are excellent. They do not have the dynamics of the big Vista horns (very few do) but in all other areas referenced above they are exceptional field coils of uncompromising musicality.


View attachment 121146View attachment 121147

End game indeed and my system (Destination Audio Vistas/76 pre-amp/45 mono blocks and a GM70 integrated) is for sale for non-audio reasons. DM me with any questions.

 

[Bobfitz1]

You have to get the updated speaker cables. Its critical.

And , you have to separate the crossover from the frame. Again critical.

If the crossover is touching the frame, the music is very smeared from the intense physical vibration.

If you use stock, instead of upgraded cables, you loose life, air and bass. Less coherent.

The speaker is very good with these tweeks. You don't need to futz with any caps or reaistors with the Coax crossover.

You need to be patient. They take 500 hours like any speaker to break in. 2000 or a year to really be there. I actually put my coax in the basement connected to a class D amp and laptop for week and let it rip sitting on the floor. I would go dowm 3 or 4 times a day to switxh the album and volume.

Also, mine sit on a 9 inch tall very heavy block of wood that sits on fiberglass insulation. A rug would also work. Massive improvement in bass. Just shocking. And, it raises the center of the coax much closer to ear height. Otherwise its too low and like sitting in a balcony.

The fabric over the top keeps the sun from striking the driver. That is all its for.

Hi, I'm new to the forum. Just ordered a PAP Duet 15 AC-1.6 with upgraded crossover cap and resistors.
Thanks for sharing what you found placing the speakers on heavy, dense wooden platforms. I have several platforms like that from Mapleshade. I'll put speakers on those right off the bat.

I have no doubt the crossover resting on the frame could surely hurt sound quality from vibrations in the frame being transmitted to the crossover components. Before going the route of moving the circuit board off the speaker entirely, did you try putting a thin layer of vibration damping material between the crossover box and frame?

I did a little research some time back on materials of that type. The very best of them are used in scientific applications like electron microscopes and are expensive, though you would only need 2 pieces big enough to cover bottom of crossover boxes. Next year when my Duet 15s are broken in, I'll find some pro grade vibration damping sheet and give it a try. I'll post back here whether doing that tweak improved the sound or not.

 

[AL1973]

Honestly, i'm so happy with my system and i can't sacrifice my kitchen to listen music, it's true, i'm italian (Italian cuisine becomes world’s first to be awarded UNESCO status).
Well my dream when my wife will stop work (i just now am in smart working), will have a country house far from noise of the city, a pair of Avalon Opus Ceramic and a pair of mono Class A power amp. The rest is just in my system, specially acoustic treatment (most important thing to have to start to dream)!

 

[AudioHR]

Still trying to figure out what my end game will be, lol!

The topic was end game speakers but a change in speakers almost always ends up in other component changes. At least that's the way it has been for over 50 years for me. Lots of improvements, some times one step forward and an equal step back but always enjoying the music.

Presently I am very happy with my speakers but who knows. I have just added two REL subwoofers. It took me awhile to dial them in and the final placement surprised me but they do make a nice difference. As many have said it is much more than a lower and more impactful deep end!

The sub placement is not obvious. This works for me visually and unless you are really familiar with the sound of my system you wouldn't really know the subs are playing until they are turned off!

 

[Salectric]

With a recent upgrade, I now have my end-game speakers. All I did was replace the midrange horn—-going from a Western Electric 32A to YL Acoustic (Yoshimura Labs) MB-150. Well, it wasn’t quite that simple. Changing horns required a new cabinet and the new horn allowed me to change the crossover going from 700Hz second-order to 350Hz first-order.

The YL 5500 driver remains the same, as does the woofer (Jensen A15PM) and tweeter (EV T-350). The new cabinet is still open baffle for the woofer.

I liked my speakers very much with the WE horn but they sound even better now. “End-game” is a tough standard but I am pretty confident I have reached it.

 

[GSOphile]

"What is going to be your endgame speaker?" At my age and with my audio room dimensions, very likely my wonderful Magico S3 2023s.

 

[jeffreybehr]

Mine are a bit more humble than those chosen by others.

They are still breaking-in, but my new Eminent Technology LFT-6s are every bit as great sounding as I had hoped, based on a new pair of LFT-8s.. At almost 81YO, I'm FINISHED chasing speakers.. The '6s were discontinued years ago, but ET apparently will make them to order.


FWIW, I repurchased my former pair of Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse monoamps this week and should see them next week.

 

[Anton D]

My end game speakers will be like one of those football games where the announcer says, “The last team with possession of the ball will be who wins.”

When I get hit by the ‘divine truck,’ whichever speaker I am most interested in at the moment will be my end game.

I am yet to have heard them all!